HL Deb 24 October 1985 vol 467 cc1296-8

3.45 p.m.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government further to their Answer to the Baroness Burton of Coventry on 11th July (col. 315) concerning the European Commission and European airlines, whether the next meeting of the Council of Transport Ministers is to take place on 14th November and, if so, what recommendations will be put forward by the British Minister in view of the failure of the Association of European Airlines at their recent meeting in Brussels to agree a common policy of liberalising air services in Europe.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (The Earl of Caithness)

My Lords, the next council meeting will indeed be on 14th November and the failure of the Association of European Airlines to produce genuinely liberal proposals makes council action even more essential. I am hopeful that, with the help of the Luxembourg and Dutch presidencies, followed by our own, we can at last achieve our objective of a freely competitive market for aviation within the European Community. The 14th November council, which my right honourable friend the Secretary of State hopes to attend, will see the real start of the battle.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, while welcoming the statement of the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, which seems to indicate real progress, and welcoming the fact that Mr. Ridley himself is attending the meeting on 14th November, may I ask the noble Earl the Minister whether, in future, meetings are likely to be held more frequently? The last one was on 24th June. May I also ask him to enlighten the House as to why the recent meeting of the Association of European Airlines failed to deliver the goods, and who were the culprits?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, perhaps I may correct one small point in the supplementary question of the noble Baroness. I said that my right honourable friend hopes to attend the meeting. It is not definite, but he certainly hopes to attend.

With regard to future meetings, no dates have been set, but certainly there is a lot of pressure to get more regular meetings in future under the new presidencies, and future presidencies.

With regard to the Association of European Airlines, the fault lies entirely with them. They have two uses: one is for technical purposes and the other is their political ambitions, and their proposals fall short of introducing any real competition, and are totally unacceptable to us.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, I really wanted to know the names of the culprits. The noble Earl the Minister will be aware that British Caledonian and British Airways were very upset at the lack of progress. But arising out of matters raised last week, can the noble Earl help the House? As the Government are on record as not favouring pooling agreements with regard to air fares, can he say whether recent agreements concerning the liberalisation of fares in Europe do permit pooling, and, in particular, does the last agreement with the Belgian Government permit pooling?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, the members of the Association of European Airlines are numerous but really are the major European airlines themselves. I understand that British Caledonian and British Airways were not happy at the lack of progress made. With regard to pooling, although we believe that the Treaty of Rome allows for competitive practices, pooling is still permitted. What we really want is a decision from the council as to exact clarification on this point.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, although the House generally recognises the tenacity of the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, in asking Questions, particularly on European airline matters, does the noble Earl the Minister note that there is no reference whatever in this Question to the debate which took place 14 days after the question was referred to in the Question of the noble Baroness? Does the noble Earl the Minister recall that some very cautionary notes were sounded during the course of that debate, particularly on the need to keep in mind the delicate balance between competition and co-operation and the general feeling that the Commission should not be given any supervisory regulatory powers over airline policy?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I have read and am aware of what has gone on before. But this Government, and increasingly the European Governments, most notably of the Scandinavian countries, are all moving towards a more competitive field but without damaging safety.