Civil Service Recruitment: Ethnic Minorities (Hansard, 23 October 1985)

§ Lord Rochester
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Lord Belstead)
My Lords, the Government have a long-standing commitment to equal opportunity in Civil Service recruitment, irrespective of ethnic origin. The Government are determined that this policy should be vigorously applied, and every effort is made, through advertising and through detailed guidance to staff involved in recruitment, to avoid the possibility of discrimination. In order to gauge the effects of these policies the Government have undertaken a programme of monitoring recruitment to the Civil Service by ethnic origin. In addition, all new entrants to the Civil Service are being asked to complete an ethnic questionnaire from 1st October 1985. These steps will enable the Government to assess the position of recruitment to the Civil Service from the ethnic minorities.

§ Lord Rochester
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that comprehensive response, so far as it goes—and I am sorry that I cannot wish him a happy birthday, too. Does the noble Lord agree that there are areas, particularly in the inner cities, where between 4 and 5 per cent. of the population are coloured people but where less than one per cent. of the Civil Service comes from the ethnic minorities? In the light of these figures, does the noble Lord accept that there is a need for the Government, as the direct employer of civil servants, to make a substantial improvement in their record if they are to give an adequate lead to other employers in this respect?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I think that the noble Lord had in mind a particular newspaper report when he was referring to 4 or 5 per cent. I believe I am right in saying that the newspaper report went on to say that the surveys on which this statement was based had not been finished. So far as concerns the Civil Service, this is indeed true. Surveys have been undertaken in the north-west of the country and in the county of Avon which showed that in areas where the ethnic working population averaged 2½ per cent. of the total population, the numbers in the Civil Service were only 1 per cent.
However, I think two facts must be borne in mind. The first is that 23 per cent. of staff did not reply. The second—which is much more important—is that a parallel recruitment survey in the same areas shows 1090 that the numbers being recruited into the Civil Service from ethnic minorities come very near to the numbers of the working population from ethnic minorities. I think that is good news. Nonetheless, I take seriously the last part of the noble Lord's question. Of course, we still need to take this matter very seriously.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that what is important is not only the numbers recruited into the Civil Service but the numbers of ethnic minorities to be found at different levels, particularly in the higher grades of the Civil Service, where I think the noble Lord will agree they are conspicuous by their absence? Can the noble Lord confirm that the Civil Service enunciated an equal opportunity policy in 1973 and that we have not heard very much about the results of that policy since that date?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, as regards the first part of the question from the noble Baroness, the Government are an equal opportunity employer, and making one's way in the Civil Service is on the grounds of merit. As to the second part of the noble Baroness's question, I think that the Civil Service is doing a great deal. A survey of staff in post is being undertaken; a survey of recruitment is being undertaken; a survey of progress of staff within the Civil Service is being undertaken; and, perhaps most important of all, a survey of the attitudes of school leavers to the Civil Service is being undertaken. It is in the light of that last survey particularly that it may of course be necessary to decide what further action to take.

§ Lord Elystan-Morgan
My Lords, on that particular matter, I wonder whether the Minister can say whether or not there is any machinery for maintaining a constant contact between the requisite branch of the Civil Service and universities, technical colleges and education authorities, with a view to recruiting persons of the highest calibre from ethnic minorities?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I should like to look at that question. If I may say so, I believe that surveys which have been undertaken since the time of the Tavistock Report have invariably been undertaken in consultation with the Civil Service unions. However, the noble Lord's question goes rather wider than that reply, and I hope that he will forgive me if I look at his question and answer it in writing.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, can the noble Lord the Minister say specifically how many people from ethnic minorities have been recruited to the administrative grade of the Civil Service in recent years? Will the noble Lord find this out and write and tell me?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I doubt whether the information is available. I pointed out to the House that one of the difficulties of surveys, which will be familiar to the noble Lord, is that of getting replies to the survey questions. In fact, in the survey which has just been taking place in the County of Avon and the north-west of England, 23 per cent. of staff did not reply. It is good news that, as I understand it, the surveys which will be taking place over the next four years will be undertaken in consultation with the 1091 unions and with their agreement. I believe that is correct. But looking backwards, to answer the noble Lord's question, I may very well find that the information is not available. Of course I shall look into it and I shall undertake to write to the noble Lord.

§ The Earl of Onslow
My Lords, how does my noble friend define "ethnic minorities"? My great grandmother was the granddaughter of a West Indian slave. I do not know whether or not I belong to an ethnic minority. Can my noble friend tell us what constitutes an ethnic minority?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, the Race Relations Act is quite clear that there must be no discrimination, and in order to decide whether there is one has to look at the details of the Act. I do not think that my noble friend falls within any of its clauses.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, are not the Scots, the Irish and the Welsh regarded as ethnic minorities where they are found in some concentration in English places?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I think not; but, in all seriousness, the adjuration of the Race Relations Act is, "No discrimination". I am quite certain that the Government are an equal opportunity employer, and we are determined to remain as such.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, having been here for a very long time, we do not regard ourselves as an ethnic minority? Can he say what are the chief causes of the failure to recruit since the Tavistock Report? He has not made that clear. We wish the Government well in the steps they are taking, but it would be of interest to the House to know why there has been so great a failure up to now.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, with respect to the noble Lord, I have not admitted on behalf of the Government that there has been such a failure. In my original Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Rochester, I endeavoured to go out of my way to say that the recruitment survey for the north-west of the County of Avon shows that recruitment in those areas is very nearly up to the percentage of the working population which is drawn from the ethnic minorities. However, the noble Lord has a point, but we cannot tell to what extent it is valid until we begin to get more information from the surveys going on at the present time.

§ Lord Plant
My Lords, can the noble Lord tell us whether there have been discussions with the Civil Service trade unions and what co-operation they are offering in that respect?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I said earlier that there had been consultation with the Council of Civil Service Unions, and other trade unions, so far as I know. The monitoring programme which is being embarked on at the present time is being done as a result of consultation.