§ 3.13 p.m.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, and to point out that it is not in the precise form that I intended, as the word "meeting" ought to have been "debate". I understand that the noble Minister has been so informed.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will initiate a meeting to mark the tenth anniversary of the Final Act of the Helsinki Accords.
§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)My Lords, all CSCE signatories had decided in 1983 that a tenth anniversary meeting should be held this year in Helsinki. This took place on 30th July—1st August. My right honourable and learned friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs represented the United Kingdom. We also sponsored, in association with the Royal Institute of International Affairs, a one-day seminar on 27th June this year to assess progress within the Helsinki process. The question of a debate is of course a matter for the whole House.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, I am indeed most grateful to the noble Baroness for that reply. May I ask whether she would be prepared to consider that this is a quite remarkable organisation? It is a remarkable thing that this has happened for Europe. There are 35 states involved in securing co-operation. It involves the super-powers. May I ask the noble Baroness whether she could perhaps use her influence with the noble 704 Viscount the Leader of the House to allow us one day to debate what exactly transpired, and perhaps make further suggestions to improve upon what has already been achieved?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I am quite sure that my noble friend the Leader of the House will have noted what the noble Lord has said.
§ Lord ShinwellMy Lords, would not the noble Baroness agree with me that there is no justification for any anniversary or anything in the nature of celebrations emerging from the Helsinki Final Act? Would she take notice of what I said some months ago in her presence and in the presence of many of my colleagues, distinguished and otherwise, that when in 1917 there emerged a drastic, even draconian, change in the religious convictions of the leaders in Soviet Russia and the satellites there was no hope of coming to some satisfactory conclusion? That was the position then, and it still remains the position. Why do they not admit that we cannot change Mr. Gorbachev, his charm or his "carry on" at the present time, which appears to be modernistic although it is nothing of the sort? They play just the old game. We cannot change them now and we had better make up our minds about it.
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I appreciate that the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, feels very strongly about this matter. But may I say to him, despite what he said and whatever shortcomings there have been in the CSCE process, that we believe it is a yardstick by which to measure Eastern European behaviour. It gives us a clear locus to raise human rights and related issues with the Soviet Union.
§ Lord SoamesBut, my Lords, would my noble friend bear in mind that, as she said, there needs to be a lot of progress yet, and that perhaps Her Majesty's Government would find it wise not to indulge in any further celebrations until the tenth anniversary of when the Helsinki Final Act has been respected and implemented, in particular with regard to human rights?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I entirely take my noble friend's point. I do not think I implied in any way by what I said that we were celebrating the tenth anniversary. We marked the tenth anniversary by the visit of my right honourable and learned friend the Foreign Secretary to Helsinki, and we considered the matter further at a seminar. But nobody can be satisfied with the progress that has been made. We would like to make more progress in this matter.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, I am quite certain that noble Lords in all parts of the House will be prepared to join in one celebration, and that is to celebrate the 101st birthday of my noble friend Lord Shinwell tomorrow.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, the noble Baroness will have noted the statement made by Dr. Genscher, the West German Foreign Minister, at the 705 end of the conference to which she has referred, when he said:
We could be entering a new era of East-West relations".Do Her Majesty's Government agree with that statement, and will respect for human rights be adhered to more faithfully from now on?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, the noble Lord will have noted that my right honourable and learned friend the Foreign Secretary is the first foreign secretary to have visited the Soviet Union and all the Eastern European countries, which he did during the course of the last year. We hope for improved relations. It is too early to measure and to say what precisely is coming out of these matters but we do believe that the dialogue is important. May I also add my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell? I had not appreciated that it was his birthday tomorrow. I am sure that I speak for all my noble friends in wishing him many happy returns.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, would the noble Baroness not agree that many of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, were made very forcefully by Britain's Foreign Secretary at that meeting, for which he should be applauded? Would she not agree that informed commentators from no fewer than 11 countries were of the opinion that there was a decided change of atmosphere between the representatives of the United States of America and those of the Soviet Union? Would she further agree that this little warm "zephyr" should be encouraged, because it could help to make mankind more aware of the dangers that exist, so that, by sensible discussion and honest collaboration, we could get rid of these dreadful fears?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, the Government believe that, unfortunately, there is no discernible improvement in the situation over the Helsinki agreements and no sign that the new leadership in the Soviet Union is taking a different view of these matters. But we believe in the continuing importance of raising them and of showing the Russians that their behaviour is not overlooked.
§ Lord RentonMy Lords, what is the Government's view of the reported banning by the Hungarian authorities of an unofficial cultural symposium in the margins of the Budapest region?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, we regret the action taken by the Hungarian authorities, which is contrary to the spirit and purpose both of the cultural forum itself and of the CSCE process. Indeed, it is a sad commentary on the willingness of certain governments to tolerate freedom of expression. The United Kingdom, together with our partners in the Community, have made clear to the Hungarian authorities their regret that those outside the forum have been hindered in expressing their views.
§ Lord ShinwellMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that my forthcoming birthday has nothing to do with the question? I asked a simple question and surely she can answer that, with all her experience. If you 706 want to make me a birthday present, why not agree that when I made that speech a few months ago—many of your Lordships denounced it—I was right and they were wrong?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I must look more carefully at what the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, has said and tell him about all the places where I can agree with him and leave out the places where I cannot agree with him.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, may I assure my noble friend that even those who think he is profoundly wrong will nonetheless celebrate his anniversary?