Nuclear Weapon Testing: Moratorium (Hansard, 25 November 1985)

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)
My Lords, the appeal was not addressed to the United Kingdom but to the United States and the Soviet Union as the countries taking part in the Geneva summit. We do not believe that, even with the assistance offered, a testing moratorium would be adequately verifiable.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
But, my Lords, is the noble Baroness not aware that the promise of Geneva needs to be fulfilled in practice? Is she also not aware that the idea that these tests are no longer verifiable is not believed in practice in any country, and that it is now very widely believed that the Government's refusal to initiate a comprehensive test ban treaty is no more than an excuse to go on testing Trident?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I cannot accept the first part of the supplementary question asked by the noble Lord. I stand by the statement that in order to make progress we need to have adequately verifiable proposals and I cannot therefore accept the suggestion he is making.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, can my noble friend say what are the names of the six inspired gentlemen referred to in the Question and what are their scientific qualifications?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, the suggestion arises from the leaders of six nations—India, Mexico, Tanzania, Sweden, Greece and Argentina—who issued a declaration which urged the United States and the Soviet Union, as well as the United Kingdom, France and China, to help in regard to all testing.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, would the noble Baroness agree that there are very much more authoritative experts on verification than the nations to which she has just referred? Would she also assure the House that the Government's unwillingness to resume negotiations for a comprehensive test ban treaty is unconnected entirely with the Government's needs to test for the Trident programme?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I gave the list of countries which had made this proposal in answer to the question by my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter. I cannnot give the particular qualifications of the people who put the point. I have no doubt that the advice that they received is available. In answer to the second part of the noble Lord's question, I can only say-that in this case limited unilateral gestures are no substitute for long-term durable agreements.

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, would the noble Baroness at least agree that if there really are six gentlemen who are fools enough to make such an offer, that very fact demonstrates that they would be quite incompetent to do so?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I do not think it would be wise of me to reflect on the competence or otherwise of the people who made this proposal

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, would the noble Baroness be prepared to consider the possibility of establishing an international consultative examining committee, drawn from all nations, of top-flight scientists who are acquainted with this problem, both for examining proposals for disarmament and then for following them up with positive verification?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, that is a very interesting proposal by the noble Lord, Lord Molloy. I think that in fact these discussions are going on in the appropriate fora. What is important is to get some agreement on verification.

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, would the noble Baroness agree that some of the clever remarks that have been made about such leaders as Mr. Rajiv Gandhi are unworthy of this House? Can she also refer us to the latest and most authoritative report on this issue of testing?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, agreement was close between 1970 and 1980 in the trilateral negotiations, when substantial progress had been made and the Soviet Union had accepted in principle some useful new steps. The fact is that many aspects of verification were not resolved, and it is the resolution of problems of that kind that is needed in order to make progress.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that my noble friend's reference to Rajiv Gandhi of India and Olof Palme of Sweden is a reflection on him rather than on them? Will the noble Baroness further agree that if she were to read Dr. Leggett of the Imperial College of Science in last Friday's Financial Times and a longer piece by the same writer in Modern Geology, she might conceivably change her view?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, referring to the article in the Financial Times last week, we hope that this experiment will help to provide a solution to some of the outstanding technical problems. I would not wish it to be thought from any of the remarks that I have made here that I take other than very seriously the statements that have been made by representatives of the six countries concerned.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, may I press the noble Baroness again on this very important question? Why are the British Government refusing to resume negotiations for a comprehensive test ban treaty? Is it because they need to test for Trident?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, may ask his question a second time, but I can only reiterate the answer I gave him the first time.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, is the noble Baroness of the view that if both sides possess these nuclear weapons that is likely to lead to the preservation of peace?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, there is an argument for saying that the balance of deterrence has been a contributory factor in keeping the peace in Europe for over 40 years.