HL Deb 14 November 1985 vol 468 cc381-3
Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will propose legislation designed to apply the measures agreed at the Commonwealth Conference to bring pressure to bear on the South African apartheid regime.

The Minister of State for Defence Support (Lord Trefgarne)

My Lords, we are considering the matter but do not believe that implementation of the measures in the Commonwealth Accord will require any new primary legislation.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that if the Government are serious about the Commonwealth Accord which they signed, and indeed the EEC accord, this will require much stricter control than in the past? In view of the statements made by the Prime Minister in Nassau about the degree of control which had been exercised by Her Majesty's Government previously, is it not now necessary, for example in the oil trade to South Africa and in the supply of computers and other defence equipment to both the police and the military forces in South Africa, that the Government should investigate seriously and should now be enthusiastic in seeking ways of fulfilling the obligations which they themselves have undertaken?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, needless to say, I do not agree with the noble Lord on that. I believe that the measures that we have presently in place are largely satisfactory for the purpose that we now propose, although it may be necessary to review one or two of the relevant orders.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, as a signatory to the Accord, if the measures proposed and supported by Her Majesty's Government have not been successful in persuading the South African Government to at least modify apartheid, if not to move completely away from it, at the end of the six months, are Her Majesty's Government then prepared to consider more swingeing action against the South African Government, as our partners in the Commonwealth wish? Secondly, is it the case that Her Majesty's Government have agreed to the export of North Sea oil and North Sea oil products to South Africa in the first six months of this year, to the tune of £5.7 million?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the United Kingdom has never sold oil to South Africa. Under the terms of the 1979 guidelines the sale of North Sea oil is confined to the European Community and certain other countries. As for the first part of the noble Lord's supplementary, I am afraid that I cannot answer that specifically because it remains to be seen what we shall be doing in six months's time.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that The Times of 29th October reported that official trade statistics showed that £5.67 million worth of North Sea crude and refined petroleum products were exported to South Africa in the first six months of this year? Is that specific statement in The Times therefore inaccurate?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the guidelines to which I have referred do not apply to petroleum products, which was one of the matters in the noble Lord's question, but they certainly apply to crude oil and, as I say, we have never sold any to South Africa.

Lord Paget of Northampton

My Lords, is not the fact of our experience that South Africa is the only place in Africa where investment grows and enriches, while a horribly high percentage of aid to the rest of Africa is merely stolen, and that if we were concerned with the benefit of African people we would send our aid to South Africa where it helps enrichment, instead of wasting it elsewhere?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I hardly think that a successful economic policy justifies a repugnant social policy.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, may I return to the two issues that I have raised with the noble Lord and which have been raised by my noble friend Lord Cledwyn. On the question of oil, are Her Majesty's Government satisfied that, although they have placed an embargo on North Sea oil, as the noble Lord says, that oil can be refined, sold to others, and find its way to South Africa? Is that a serious effort to send what the Government call signals to South Africa, and is it happening?

Secondly, on the military side, the noble Lord has not answered my second question in my first supplementary. Is it not the case that military equipment, and particularly computers used in the Plessey/Marconi deal with South Africa, are being used by the South African defence forces and by the South African police in their efforts to suppress the protests of the black South Africans?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I am not quite sure how you use an air traffic control radar system for suppressing the population, to which the noble Lord referred; but the noble Lord will be aware that the export of almost every other item to South Africa is subject to the export licensing procedure.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, would the noble Lord—

Several Noble Lords

No!

Lord Hatch of Lusby

—answer the first part of my question on oil?

Several Noble Lords

Order!

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, is the noble Lord also aware that within that Plessey/Marconi order there are contained computers?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, complex air traffic control radar systems often involve the use of computers.

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