Thurrock: Planning Application (Hansard, 23 May 1985)

§ Lord Nugent of Guildford
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Elton)
My Lords, the proposal will be dealt with according to the normal planning procedures. There is a planning application at present before the Thurrock Borough Council and it is for it to take a view in the first instance.

§ Lord Nugent of Guildford
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his Answer, which tells me facts that I already knew on planning procedure. As the proposal is outside the structure plan its prospects are obviously doubtful. But is he aware that what I am hoping for is reassurance of the statement made last year with regard to the Government's intention to preserve the metropolitan green belt? Is he further aware that, had all the glamorised proposals like this one which have come forward to develop in the green belt been allowed in this post-war period, the whole green belt would have disappeared by now and Londoners would have lost the pleasure that they now have of enjoying the countryside and the fresh air? Does he accept that this is a point of major interest? Will he at the same time confirm that the rumour generated by the promoters that there is a shortage of housing sites is not correct, and that the provision of housing sites in the structure plans of local authorities in the South-East is adequate to meet the need in the current decade?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I can certainly assure my noble friend that the Government continue to attach great importance to green belts. As he has reminded us, as recently as last summer the Secretary of State reaffirmed green belt policy and, in particular, the presumption against inappropriate development within them. As he is the final appeal authority, I cannot say anything about individual cases. But I can tell my noble friend that we are satisfied that the procedures laid down in Circular 15/84 are appropriate for securing sufficient land for new housing, although we shall clearly keep those under review.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, is the Minister aware that his right honourable friend went further in November last year when he issued a statement 406 primarily in regard to GLC green belt land? He ended by saying: and of my continuing determination to regard this land as inalienable". There is a great difference between what the Minister has just said and what his right honourable friend said then. Can he clarify the matter?

§ Lord Elton
Indeed, my Lords. I have the statement in my hand with exactly the same words underlined. I thought that I had reflected them, and I thought also that I might have difficulty with the word "inalienable"

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, although his Answer as regards the general intention is satisfactory, it is rather sad that it should be connected with a specific development such as that in the Question? Is it not likely to prejudice people who will be applying through the normal channels? Will it not prejudice evidence which they may give and which may well be able to overcome some of the general objections? Should Questions as specific as this be put down prior to the inquiry or application?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, that is an interesting question. I think that the answer is that every thing I have said—and this has been borne out by the noble Baroness opposite—has been to repeat ready published policy.

The Earl of Halsbury
My Lords, does the noble Lord accept the caveat that developers will nibble away at the green belt like a mouse through cheese if given the opportunity? Does he remember what we both learned at school—that there are 640 acres to the square mile, and that there is little difference between a square mile and a mile square; they are identical—and does he accept that this is over one mile square of land? Is not that rather a big bite, and ought not everything to be done to discourage them from thinking it possible?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Harmar-Nicholls has made it plain that it would be improper for me to pronounce on this particular application. All I can do is to repeat the Government's commitment to their stated policy.

§ Lord Simon of Glaisdale
My Lords, as the decision may well ultimately come to the Minister himself, will he bear in mind not only the amenity considerations which have been dealt with today but also the disadvantage of concentrating further development in the South-East rather than in the rest of the country?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, my right honourable friend bears all relevant considerations in mind when a case is brought to him. The case will not of course be brought to him if it is turned down by the council to which the original application was made.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, I am sorry to press the Minister on this, and I do not wish to seem pedantic, but there is a great difference between his original statement that the Government attach great 407 importance to green belt land and the use of the word which we both find so difficult, which indicates an absolute approach to green belt land. I really think that we should have an answer to that.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I am perfectly happy to oblige the noble Baroness. On reading Hansard she may find that I have done so already, but I shall repeat exactly the words which my right honourable friend used on 7th November 1984: I am also taking this opportunity to remind authorities of my own considerable powers and responsibilities for the oversight of all 1938 Act interests, including those being transferred when the GLC is abolished, and of my continuing determination to regard this land as inalienable". I hope that that satisfies the noble Baroness.

§ Baroness Fisher of Rednal
My Lords, will the noble Lord consider giving greater emphasis to the derelict land grants which the Government give so that that land can be recovered and used for these particular purposes?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I really think that that goes beyond the scope of the Question, but I shall bear it in mind.