§ 3.9 p.m.
§ Lord Taylor of BlackburnMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government which public industries they intend to privatise during this Parliament.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Arts (The Earl of Gowrie)My Lords, individual candidates will be announced as and when circumstances make this appropriate; but we shall build on a substantial record of achievement. Including British Telecom, 12 major public sector companies and a number of other enterprises have been successfully privatised, bringing in receipts of about £4 billion and transferring more than 400,000 jobs to the private sector.
§ Lord Taylor of BlackburnMy Lords, is the Minister aware of the Gallup poll published in this morning's Daily Telegraph? If he is aware of it, does this mean a total rejection of the Government's policies?
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, I have always considered it rather indelicate for Members of your Lordships' House on any side to comment on electoral matters. But that said, I would not suggest that the noble Lord rush into election fever precisely at this moment.
§ Lord ShinwellMy Lords, are there not some Government departments which have a monopoly and which we could dispose of, and then get some money out of them? Take as an example—it has just occurred to me—MI5, which has been a complete failure for many years. We could sell that off quite easily, and some of us would be glad to take some shares in it.
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, I have always looked upon the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, as one of the most trenchant advocates of defence expenditure in your Lordships' House, so I am rather surprised at this volte-face, if that is what the noble Lord is engaged in. As for Government departments generally, I would remind your Lordships that without significant loss of service to the public, we have reduced the Civil Service by more than 110,000 since we came into office.
§ Lord EzraMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that there is a growing feeling that the main purpose of the Government's privatisation policy now is to enable the Treasury to rake in as much money as possible? Will he kindly inform the House whether that is indeed the main purpose of Her Majesty's Government's policy?
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, any receipts from assets sales are naturally welcome, as the previous Government found in selling British Petroleum shares. When I was sitting on the opposite side of the House, I urged them to sell the lot. The Government's primary aims, however, in their privatisation 1251 programme are to increase efficiency, promote growth, spread ownership of shares generally, which is something I believe the Alliance parties are interested in, and to encourage employees to participate in the success of the companies in which they work.
Lord Bruce of DoningtonMy Lords, in view of the fact that the loss of confidence in the Government, to which my noble friend Lord Taylor of Blackburn referred, is now evidently shared by quite a number of the Government's own supporters in another place, would it not be far better to suspend the whole operation of privatisation, which is quite irrelevant to the country's needs and adds nothing at all to its output? Would it not be far better to abandon the whole silly and ridiculous programme?
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, the Government's maintenance of confidence both in the country and with their own supporters is a great deal higher than at this period in the Parliament of the Government which the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, supported. As to the second part of his supplementary question, it would really be idiotic of the Government not to press on with one of their most successful programmes.
§ Lord BeswickMy Lords, if the Government have found a cleverer way of managing these industries, why do they pick out the easier and more profitable concerns to hand over to this new concept?
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, it is not the view of the Government that the entire public sector should be privatised but only those parts of the public sector that are appropriate.
§ Lord DiamondMy Lords, further to that, as the Government are—
§ Lord SomersMy Lords, will the noble Earl explain why the Government have constantly turned a blind eye to the one industry which is crying out for privatisation; and that is British Leyland?
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, I do not think the eye that has been turned is blind. My right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is very sensible of what the noble Lord, Lord Somers, has said. In fact, part of British Leyland, the Jaguar company, has been very successfully privatised, as he will be aware.
§ Lord DiamondMy Lords, at the end of the Government's period of office when they have completed their privatisation programme referred to in this Question, and in view of the fact that they have already realised more than £4 billion, according to the Minister, and will no doubt realise a great deal more of the country's national assets, what will the Government have to show by way of capital creation to replace those billions of pounds spent in this regrettable rake's progress?
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, far from being a rake's progress, at last public ownership will mean something. Since we seem to be in electoral mood, I 1252 certainly look forward to the Alliance's manifesto at the next election when it suggests the renationalisation of these assets.
§ Lord DiamondMy Lords, I did not ask anything about electoral moods. I asked: what will the Government have to show in terms of capital creation for this huge amount of national assets—more than £4 billion and possibly £6 billion to £8 billion—which they will have realised and spent?
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, any Government should be proud to have redistributed capital from the Executive to the public. That is a thoroughly good thing to do and the Government should be doing more of it.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, will the noble Minister not agree that the next list of British-owned industries to be carved off to friends of the Tory Party will probably be the most profitable of publicly-owned industries? Will he not agree that many privately-owned organisations and privately-owned industries depend on these great British-owned industries for their livelihood? Before they indulge in this rape of British-owned organisations and publicly-owned industries, will they take into account the fact that many other privately-owned industries, their shareholders and workers, depend on the publicly-owned industries for their livelihood?
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, all the assumptions underlying the question of the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, suggest his reluctance that the British should own their industries.
§ Lord Harmar-NichollsMy Lords, is an asset domiciled in this country any less of a national asset just because it is not publicly owned?
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, I think that my noble friend puts his finger on the button. The fact is that we are returning these industries to the ownership of the public.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, what about the Navy and the Army, then?
§ Lord Stoddart of SwindonMy Lords, the noble Earl mentioned that the Government had received £4 billion from the sale of assets; but does he recall that British Telecom was sold by the Government for a total of £2 billion? The value of British Telecom assets now on the Stock Exchange is £6 billion. The Government have lost £4 billion. Is that what they call good business?
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, the Government's loss is the gain of the public. But I can point out to your Lordships that I shall be answering a debate in the name of my noble friend Lord Thorneycroft on this very subject on 5th June, and I am thoroughly looking forward to it.
Viscount St. DavidsMy Lords, will the noble Earl agree that the 50 per cent. increase in the value of the shares, now that they are in the hands of the public, 1253 shows how much more confidence the public have in this industry than they had before it was sold?
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, like many converts from the Labour Party, the noble Viscount, Lord St. Davids, has seen the light.
§ Lord BeswickMy Lords, will the noble Earl say why he has chosen the date of 5th January to discuss this, as I shall be travelling back from Japan on that day?
§ Lord StallardMy Lords, following the question of the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, and the noble Earl's reply to it, will the noble Earl accept that there is a great deal of disquiet outside that these candidates, as the noble Earl refers to them, are being fattened up prior to sale? I give as an example the contract for ferrying troops backwards and forwards to the Falkland Islands which has been taken from the Royal Air Force and given to British Airways in a blatant attempt to fatten up British Airways prior to privatisation. Will the noble Earl explain?
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, one cannot really have it both ways. If it were true that the Government were fattening industries prior to sale, there would not have been an appreciation on the markets for which the Government are criticised subsequent to sale.
Lord Wallace of CoslanyMy Lords, will the noble Earl tell the House to what extent the Government want to extend the privatisation of public toilets? This is a matter of great interest to noble Peers.
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, I take a great deal of trouble with my briefing but I am afraid that I have nodded on this aspect. I shall look into it.