British Aerospace: Government Shareholding (Hansard, 14 May 1985)

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, may I first say that such is my admiration for the debating skill of the noble Lord, Lord Harmar-Nicholls, that I accept that he can make a full day's debate, or two days' debate, out of any subject that is put into any Question. I now beg leave to ask the second Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Lucas of Chilworth
My Lords, it is the Government's policy to sell their remaining shareholdings in privatised companies as the circumstances of the companies, the prospectus undertakings and market conditions permit. British Aerospace has been operating successfully in the private sector since 1981, and the sale of the Government's remaining shares was in the interests both of the taxpayer and of the company.

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. But will he accept that it does not adequately explain why they should go back on the pledge that was given in 1980 that there would be no further sales of shares for the foreseeable future? Will the noble Lord make absolutely clear that not a single penny raised by these sales of Government shares went into new equipment for the company? Will he also take the opportunity to correct an impression, which he probably inadvertently gave yesterday, that the sale of these remaining Government shares would mean that the men and women working in British Aerospace would work harder?

§ Lord Lucas of Chilworth
My Lords, the pledge to which the noble Lord referred was, as I explained yesterday afternoon, to protect the company in the national interest, particularly from a foreign takeover. That pledge has been implemented by virtue of the special share. I spelt that out yesterday afternoon and I know that the noble Lord took note of what we discussed. The "foreseeable future" which was mentioned at that time lasted for some years. Circumstances change. So far as the moneys are concerned, I think I replied on that point in the earlier answers that I gave the noble Lord with regard to the sale of British Telecom shares. As regards the third question about the workforce, I think that the company's results speak for themselves.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, can the noble Lord the Minister explain to the House why, according to some media reports, the shares taken up by British employees in British Aerospace are almost the minimum? There do not seem to be a great many people who know exactly how they set about it, so that, consequently very few have been taken up by British employees. Can the noble Lord say how many foreign based organisations—not necessarily foreign firms—in this country now have an interest in this new British company?

§ Lord Lucas of Chilworth
My Lords, there were 3 million shares taken up in this last isssue by employees of British Aerospace, in addition to those that they had some years ago. Until the share register is made up, it is quite impossible for me to answer the second question.

§ Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran
My Lords, can the noble Lord inform the House whether, in disposing of the shareholdings, they also disposed of the know-how and associated intellectual property rights? If they have been disposed of, what is the range of that disposal and are any steps being taken to protect Government rights in secret inventions?

§ Lord Lucas of Chilworth
My Lords, I hope that I do not misunderstand the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran; but the company itself issued one-third of the total share issue. We sold our remaining shares. I do not see how that affects in any way the intellectual holding within the company, which would of course be protected by the company.

§ Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran
My Lords, there is no such thing as an intellectual holding. I was asking about the intellectual property rights which relate to patents, trade marks, know-how, copyright and so on, which are at present in the hands of the Government.

§ Lord Lucas of Chilworth
My Lords, perhaps I put the word "intellectual" in the wrong place.

§ Lord Mishcon
You normally do.

§ Lord Lucas of Chilworth
Not normally, my Lords; sometimes, perhaps. The sale of shares does not affect an intellectual holding that a company may have in its patents, its copyrights and so on. Those holdings are reflected in the value of the shares that it offers for sale.

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, the noble Lord said, in reply to the third part of my question, that the record of the company spoke for itself; and of course the record of the company is absolutely splendid. What he actually said yesterday was that the sale of these further shares, can only give a further spur to its efficiency".—[Official Report, 13/5/85; col. 932.] Is that not implying that it needed some further spur? Is it not a reflection upon the integrity of the people working down there?

§ Lord Lucas of Chilworth
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, who had such a distinguished career in the late 'seventies and early 'eighties as chairman of the organisation, knows that I meant no such thing at all. Indeed, much of his work in those early days before privatisation has resulted in the current success. Our endeavours in this direction will add to his own endeavours.