§ 3.8 p.m.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have any plans to abolish the shire county councils.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, the need to put down this Question arose from the failure of the noble Viscount the Leader of the House to answer the same question in the Second Reading debate on the Local Government Bill, although I put it to him directly. If it is the Government's case that the upper tier of local government should be removed from the GLC and the metropolitan counties, and power returned to the people at a local level, why does that not apply equally in the shire counties?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, the shire counties are responsible for 86 per cent. of expenditure on local matters.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I am quite aware of that; but that has nothing to do with the principle of removing the upper tier of local government. So far as I understand it, the Government are making the case that on principle this upper tier should be removed. Therefore, why not do so in the shire counties? Would it not have saved the Government a good deal of embarrassment last week in the county council elections if the shire counties had been abolished—indeed, as much a saving of embarrassment last Tuesday if this House had been abolished?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, if the noble Lord will read the rest of my noble friend's excellent speech in reply to the Second Reading debate, he will see that we had other reasons for abolishing the upper tier authorities than he has adduced.
§ Lord Maude of Stratford-upon-AvonMy Lords, would it not be more to the point if Her Majesty's Government began to think about restoring the historic shire counties to the state which they were in before local government disorganisation in 1974?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, there has been such comment about the relevance of ministerial Answers and the prolonging of debates that your Lordships will forgive me if I do not reply.
§ Lord JacquesMy Lords, in any consideration of local government in the shire counties will the Government bear in mind that many of the powers which have gone to the shire counties have gone against the will of the people living in the urban areas, and that there are many towns in the shire counties which could make quite as good a job of local government services as the boroughs in the metropolitan areas?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, the noble Lord is entitled to his view and I shall look at it with interest.
§ Lord Dean of BeswickMy Lords, did not the Minister have some qualms of conscience last Thursday, bearing in mind the results of the elections which took place, at the fact that the Government Bill disfranchised 11 million people from recording a vote in areas which historically are literally the centres of Labour support? Is it not also a fact that they did so badly in their own traditional areas that there would have been a massacre in the areas where they disfranchised the people from voting? Was not that one of the main reasons for the Bill?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, my only qualm of conscience on Thursday was that I did not do a good enough job in persuading your Lordships to the Government's view on one or two matters.