South Africa: Violence (Hansard, 8 May 1985)

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, the South African Government are fully aware of our deep concern at recent events. My right honourable and learned friend has strongly condemned the Uitenhage shootings. Our views were directly communicated to the South African Ambassador. On 29th April European Community Ministers issued a statement deploring the current violent situation in South Africa.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that most encouraging Answer, which does the honour of this nation so much good. Is the noble Baroness aware that yesterday, at the poignant scene at the site of the Struthof Concentration Camp, British and American spokesmen not only condemned anti-Semitism but also condemned racialism, and that both Americans and British expressed their grave apprehensions at the vulgarity and appalling atrocities now being committed by the South African Government?

§ Baroness Young
Yes, my Lords, the British Government's view on both anti-Semitism and apartheid is quite clear. We have unreservedly condemned them both.

§ Lord Orr-Ewing
My Lords, when my noble friend is making representations to South Africa will she possibly also make representations to Nigeria to the effect that 700,000 being driven out of that country on racial grounds is even more deplorable?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I note of course the point that my noble friend makes, but I think he will agree that it is in fact another question.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, does the noble Baroness not agree that what we are witnessing in South Africa is an unfolding tragedy of immense proportions? Will she say once again whether economic sanctions are being considered by Her Majesty's Government? Short of economic sanctions, are any other measures in the minds of Ministers to seek to ameliorate the policies of the South African Government? Furthermore, can she say whether any discussions are taking place with our partners in the European Community and with the United States on this subject?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, the answer to the noble Lord's first question is that there is no evidence, we believe, that sanctions will achieve the changes we want to see. However, we are determined to maintain our pressure for change in South Africa and we believe that we must remain engaged politically, diplomatically, and economically, and use all our influence and our contacts to press the South African Government to introduce major reforms urgently and to talk to the genuine leaders of the black community. As I indicated in my first Answer, we and our European partners have issued a statement condemning the Uitenhage shootings.

§ Lord Shinwell
My Lords while we are entitled to express our distaste at certain events which take place in South Africa and other countries apart from the United Kingdom, can the noble Baroness say whether at the same time the South African Government have made any representations to the United Kingdom Government about violent events which have taken place in this country?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, makes an interesting point, but it would not be for me to speak on behalf of the South African Government.

Lord Inglewood
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend, apart from representations which are very important and have to be repeated, is it not possible that a request be made to the South African Government to give opportunities to people who may be in that country and know about police work and the use of force? Should they not have extended to them facilities which used to be available in South Africa and which we do not want to lose?

§ Baroness Young
Yes, my Lords, as I indicated earlier, we have continued to press the South African Government to make the kind of reforms that we should like to see.

§ Lord Brockway
My Lords, in view of the signs that in South Africa there is beginning in a small way a civil war which, if it escalated, would have a deplorable effect, may I ask the Minister whether the Government will take the initiative in the Security Council of the United Nations to find a way in which world opinion against apartheid can be reflected, including the possibility of sanctions against South Africa?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I have already indicated that there is no evidence at all to indicate that sanctions would in fact achieve the results that we should like to see, or, indeed, that the noble Lord should like to see. We believe that they would be unlikely to influence South African policies.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the answers which she has given this afternoon reflect the superb endeavours of the Government—and long may they continue? But does she not agree that besides the protests, the time is now ripe for us, with our European colleagues and, indeed, our other colleagues in the free world and other parts of the world, for that matter, to use every endeavour to end the kind of brutalities which ordinary people are enduring, and which some people endured from a fascist regime in Germany just before the commencement of the last World War?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I note what the noble Lord has said. I think we need to bear in mind that there have been some important measures announced this year. President Botha's speech of 25th January indicated a desire for a wider dialogue with the blacks, the suspension of forced removals pending a review of policy, and the extension of the 99-year leasehold rights to blacks in the Cape area. These are improvements. There is still a long way to go and we believe that the processes of discussion and the means that we are trying to use to influence the South African Government are more likely to achieve that end.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, am I correct in understanding the noble Baroness to have said that the British Government are anxious to speak to the proper representatives of the black African people in South Africa? If I am correct, does this include the African National Congress, the longest standing of all African institutions in that country? If not, why is it that the British Government are prepared to talk to SWAPO and to Unita if they are not prepared to talk to the African National Congress?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, what I said was that we would press the South African Government to talk to the genuine leaders of the black communities in their country, which we believe would be helpful in the present situation.