Tobacco Promotion (Hansard, 7 May 1985)

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, this Government, like their predecessors, have chosen to regulate tobacco promotion mainly by way of voluntary agreements. When the time comes to review the present agreements we shall take account of all the relevant circumstances, including the views of the medical profession.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
But, my Lords, will the Minister not agree that more is now necessary? Does he recollect that in the first place the tobacco companies failed in their voluntary agreement not to advertise on television before 9 p.m.—an agreement which was designed to protect children? Is he aware that since the 1965 Act, banning tobacco advertising on television, they have tried to circumvent this law by sponsoring sports events, which is designed to make children associate sports such as car racing and snooker and adventure holidays with smoking? Thus would the noble Earl not agree that in order adequately to protect our children from a product which kills one in four of its consumers, we should perhaps now follow the example of Norway and Finland and ban the promotion of cigarettes?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the noble Baroness said that the 1965 Act banned tobacco advertising. Perhaps I may just correct her: it was cigarette advertising on television that was banned. No, my Lords; I think that the voluntary agreements which have been in effect since 1971 have been beneficial. Cigarette sales, which stood at 137 billion in 1973, are reported as being 98 billion in 1984, while the proportion of adult smokers in the population has fallen from 47 per cent. in 1972 to 35 per cent. in 1982. That is not a bad record.

§ Lord Orr-Ewing
My Lords, is it not desirable, when possible, to use voluntary agreements rather than legislation? Are they not more flexible, so that one can adjust to any arrangements that are necessary in the interests of public health? Is it not true that the tobacco industry is spending something like £8 million in sponsoring sport and recreation? Is it not true that 524 both that and the £4 million being ploughed into the arts is very valuable for the well being of many people who like their recreation and their art?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I totally agree with my noble friend Lord Orr-Ewing that voluntary agreement is the best. I think that there is benefit from sponsorship of the arts, provided that it does not encourage particularly young people to smoke.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, will the Minister care to put the figure of £8 million spent on sponsorship of sport against the cost to our hospital service of treating patients?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot confirm the figure of £8 million because that matter involves a private agreement with the Department of the Environment.

§ Lord Kinnaird
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the content of this Question reminds me of the plight of little Tommy, whose interfering mother said, "Find out what little Tommy is doing now and, whatever it is, tell him not to do it"?

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, has not the noble Lord put a very relevant question? Is not one of the great problems that more and more youngsters are taking up what we know to be a seriously addictive habit? I am talking about cigarette smoking. Can the noble Earl say when the present voluntary agreement is to end? Will he also seek to draw a distinction between the very severe dangers of cigarette smoking and the very much less severe dangers of tobacco smoking and cigar smoking?

The Earl of Caithness
Yes, my Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Ennals, that there is a very great difference between cigarette smoking and cigar smoking. Cigarette smoking is reported to be much worse, though I would not know because I do neither. I think in a free society such as ours we must be cautious about banning an activity by legislation unless there is firm evidence to support such action—and there is no such evidence at the moment.

§ Lord Shinwell
My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl the Minister whether he is aware of any Member of your Lordships' House having been sponsored by any of the tobacco firms? Is he aware of anything of that kind going on? Is he aware that I have been smoking for ever so long as I can remember, since I was aged 13, and that I still indulge in an occasional whiff when it suits me? I do not ask permission from anybody, whoever they happen to be and however prominent they think they are. I have never been sponsored by a tobacco firm, but perhaps they would like to start it now. My stock of tobacco has run short. I do not mind. After all, there is nothing really seriously wrong with smoking; there is no corruption about it. If there was any corruption, I should have nothing to do with it; I assure even my noble friend Lady Ewart-Biggs that I would have nothing to do with it. I cannot understand why she raises this Question. I should have thought that she was the kind of person who occasionally indulges in a cigar.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I am not aware of any noble Lord being sponsored by a tobacco company, but I am sure that the companies will now be carefully looking at the noble Lord for the next 100 years.

Viscount St. Davids
My Lords, will the noble Earl comment on the fact that one of the most serious ways in which tobacco smoking is encouraged happens when sch000lmasters and youth leaders do it? Is it not most important that we should discourage these people from smoking, although, I must admit, they are not paid for doing so by anyone? They do not seem to be very highly paid at all.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, it is, I think, the policy of this Government as of all Governments in the recent past that we should get across the message of good health to everyone.

§ Viscount Simon
My Lords, will the noble Earl answer the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Ennals, as to when the present agreement runs out? The noble Earl said that it would be renewed when it ran out.

The Earl of Caithness
Yes, my Lords. I am sorry if I missed that point. One agreement on sports sponsorship runs out on 31st December this year. One on tobacco products advertising and promotion and health warnings expires on 31st March next year.

§ Lord Rea
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that before the last war, when we did not know the harmful effect of smoking cigarettes, 20 cigarettes a day took 7 per cent. of average earnings, whereas today, when we are fully aware of the harm that cigarette smoking does, it takes around 6 per cent. of average earnings? Mindful of this, would he not agree that a useful method of reducing cigarette smoking would be to increase the excise duty on cigarettes by a percentage above the inflation rate a year? This would have the effect not only of discouraging smoking but also of keeping the very useful Exchequer revenue from it at the same level.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Rea, noticed that my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer increased the tax by about twice the rate of inflation in the last Budget.

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords, is it the Government's intention to reduce tobacco-induced mortality and disease in this country? If so, are the Government satisfied that they are doing everything within their power to achieve that intention?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, we believe that we are doing everything that is justified at the moment on a voluntary basis, which is the most effective way of proceeding.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, is the Minister not concerned—I am sure he is—that Great Britain has one of the highest rates in the world of lung cancer among women? Does this not make him feel that every 526 kind of measure should be taken to dissuade small children, including small girls, from starting to smoke?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords I agree that we should make every effort. We have had one of the largest reductions in smoking in the last 10 years. There is, I believe, more good news to come on that front.