Namibia: Future Government (Hansard, 3 May 1985)

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces (Lord Trefgarne)
No, my Lords. The proposed transitional government, which comprises only some of the Namibian political parties, has no status under the United Nations plan and we shall regard its establishment as null and void. As we have made clear to the South African Government, the United Nations plan is the only agreed basis for internationally recognised independence in Namibia, and we remain committed to it.

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, when are the Government going to wake up to the fact that the United Nations plan was never practical and has been dead for years? Are they aware that South Africa has carried and subsidised the Namibian budget by over a third and that is the sole reason why alone in black Africa Namibia is not starving and has had no famine? Is the Minister further aware that since those proposals came, South Africa, with her own army and at her own expense, has fought a highly successful war to protect Namibia from communist invasion in the north? Is he also aware that this proposal is for the tyranny of a single tribe? May I just ask the noble Lord—

Noble Lords
No!

Lord Paget of Northampton
—before he gets too excited about getting to his feet, who is going to pay for the United Nations proposal? South Africa has been putting up something like £½ billion a year.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, as I said, the Government remain committed to the United Nations plan. I therefore reject the basis of all the noble Lord's supplementary questions.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that there are aspects of the United Nations position on this which are beginning to look increasingly unrealistic? First, as the noble Lord, Lord Paget, said, Namibia is one of the few parts of Africa which has been famine-free, thanks to South African protection—and I use that term "protection". Secondly, South Africa has a rather different standing 472 than it used to have in that it is now a friend of Mozambique which of course should commend it to the Left do-gooders.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, both the contact group of which the United Kingdom is a member and, indeed, the South African Government remain committed to the United Nations plan, and that is the basis of our policy.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the Minister aware that, while the major nations involved with the United Nations plan have been somewhat dilatory in implementing what is required, nevertheless what he stated here this morning will be welcomed by all sane and civilised people as standing by those who are suffering such oppression in Namibia?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his words. Our policy remains to ensure that the people of Namibia have a chance to choose for themselves the Government that they require.

§ Lord Boston of Faversham
My Lords, will the Minister accept that his robust Answer to the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Paget, will be widely welcomed, as, indeed, has been indicated by my noble friend Lord Molloy? Does he agree that it is regrettable that speedier progress has not been made towards independence, as has been noted by the meeting recently in New Delhi of the non-aligned movement? Can he say what further steps are contemplated by the Western contact group to try to get things moving further?

§ Lord Trefgarne
Yes, my Lords, I agree that swifter progress would have been welcome, but unhappily it has not been achieved. The contact group as such has not been particularly active recently, as the noble Lord will be aware, but happily discussions are continuing among the United States, the South Africans and, indeed, the Angolans, and we hope that an agreed settlement will emerge before long.

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords, the noble Lord's statement gives satisfaction, I think, to the whole House, but does he agree that despite, or, indeed, perhaps because of, the fact that nothing has happened for a long time, now might be the moment for the United Kingdom to take a more active role in the contact group, especially in view of the fact that the United States, which as the noble Lord has just told us has been taking the lead so far, has given the South African Government the excuse for the delay over the past four or five years by suggesting to them the linkage with the withdrawal of Cuban troops in Angola?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I think that the Government's position on linkage has been previously well rehearsed. While we do not accept the formal existence of the kind of linkage to which the noble Lord refers, nonetheless it is a fact of life that both the United States and the South African Government have made their position clear on that. It seems unrealistic to imagine that progress can be made without some recognition of that view.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, although I totally welcome the noble Lord's initial Answer, may I ask him whether he has read the report of the all-party delegation which recently visited Namibia and of which the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, was a distinguished member? If so, has he recognised from it the degree of murder and torture by the occupying forces of South Africa and the rape of the economy of that country which will continue so long as the South Africans occupy it? Do Her Majesty's Government have any plans to take action to stop what is an international scandal?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, we have consistently made our concern about human rights issues in Namibia known to the South African authorities, both privately and in public statements. We shall continue to follow the situation there closely.

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords, will the noble Lord take note that the words used by the noble Lord, Lord Hatch, were riot verbatim from the report which he cited?

§ Lord Trefgarne
Yes, my Lords.

§ Lord Monson
My Lords, will the noble Lord not agree that under the previous internal administration in Namibia a few years ago most apartheid laws were abolished, as anybody who has recently visited Namibia will have observed, and the Civil Service was thrown open to qualified people of all races? Therefore, is it not positively desirable that another internal administration be set up to carry on the good work?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, while what the noble Lord says about the previous government in Namibia is no doubt true, the fact remains that it suffered from the fundamental flaw that it had not been chosen by the people.

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I am a little surprised by the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, since, after visiting the country, he signed a unanimous report to exactly the opposite effect to what he says today? Should one go on wandering about with a policy that is obviously obsolete and not try to get on with what is being done very positively in the country now?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the noble Lord may like to consider settling his differences with the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, over a drink in the bar later.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, may I briefly say that in fact I issued a minority report, which was the subject of a debate on the BBC in which I took part, and I disagreed with 99 per cent. of what the rest of the South African sycophants published in their official report.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, two drinks may be needed!