HL Deb 25 March 1985 vol 461 cc779-83

3.50 p.m.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat the Answer to a Private Notice Question being given in another place by my honourable friend the Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, Mr. Rifkind:

"My right honourable and learned friend issued a statement on 22nd March strongly condemning the shootings at Uitenhage and calling for the fullest possible investigation. My honourable friend the Member for Shoreham summoned the South African ambassador. We view the latest events in South Africa with abhorrence. The deaths are particularly tragic not only because they occurred on the anniversary of Sharpeville, but because they fly in the face of certain more hopeful developments in recent months. We will continue to use all our influence to press the South African Government to introduce the fundamental reforms so clearly needed".

My Lords, that concludes the Answer.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Baroness for repeating the reply to the Private Notice Question asked in another place. We endorse and support the strong reaction of the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary.

The appalling actions of the South African Government have been properly condemned throughout the world. They can only be described as barbaric and they underline once again, in a tragic way, the inevitable consequences of the policy of apartheid. We also strongly support the words of the American Under-Secretary, Mr. Chester Crocker, that South Africa would have to make some constructive changes to accommodate the black majority and that the alternative would be chaos.

Can the noble Baroness now inform the House what actions the Government propose taking in addition to the protest they have made and their request for an investigation—unilaterally, through our Common Market partners, and through United Nations—to demonstrate our profound abhorrence of these events? Will the Government also use every diplomatic means possible to bring pressure to bear on the South African Government to abolish apartheid, for nothing else will suffice, and to introduce liberal policies? Finally, do Her Majesty's Government agree with the Commonwealth Secretary-General who has given his support to the idea of phased sanctions against South Africa?

Lord Avebury

My Lords, we, too, are most grateful to the noble Baroness for repeating this Answer. Did not Commonwealth leaders warn in October 1983 that the apartheid constitution (and I quote), would only lead to a rising tide of anger against the injustices of apartheid with further repression and brutality directed at the African majority and other racial groups acting in solidarity with them"? With the benefit of hindsight, would the Government not admit now that in declining to associate themselves with that part of the communiqué they were wrong and the rest of the Commonwealth was right?

Were the Government not similarly misguided in the United Nations Security Council in August 1984 and in the General Assembly in September 1984 when they, alone with the United States, abstained on resolutions condemning those constitutional arrangements?

Do the Government now recognise that, as Mr. Chester Crocker of the American State Department has said, unless prompt and effective measures are introduced to enable the majority to share power, the result will be chaos and anarchy? Will the Government therefore recall our ambassador in South Africa for urgent consultations as a sign that they intend to do more than make ritual noises of condemnation at the frightful atrocities which have been committed?

Will the Government now consider using exchange controls to halt all new investment in South Africa and to stem the tide of bank loans to enterprises in that country? Will the Government now advise British companies and banks not to invest there?

Will they also renew the call to all cultural and sporting organisations not to have any contact with South African bodies? In particular, will they reaffirm our support for the Gleneagles agreement? Will they make a special appeal to the four home rugby unions to abandon any plans they may be preparing for a Lions tour of South Africa in 1986?

Finally, will the Government set an example to Mr. Botha, in furtherance of their advice that he open a dialogue with black leaders, by initiating consultations themselves with leaders of the ANC, PAC and UDF?

3.55 p.m.

Baroness Young

My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lords, Lord Cledwyn and Lord Avebury, for what they have said about the Answer and the very serious events which have taken place in South Africa.

The noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, asked, first, about what action has been taken by the European Community. We understand that the presidency is making a statement on behalf of the Community. He went on to ask what the Government's reaction is to these events. I should like to make it absolutely plain to the House that we intend to maintain the pressures for change. I hope that answers some of the questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury.

We believe that we must remain engaged—politically, diplomatically and economically—with the Government of South Africa and that it is vital to use all our influence to try to obtain a peaceful change. I must make it absolutely plain that we condemn apartheid, and have said so on many occasions, but we believe that the violent collapse of the South African Government would not be in anybody's interest at all—except, possibly, the enemies of the West.

The noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, asked also for our view on the proposal made by the Secretary-General of the Commonwealth for phased sanctions against South Africa. Our view of this, as it is of selective sanctions, is that it would be unlikely to influence South African policies. Indeed, we believe that such sanctions could hurt the blacks and that many blacks are in fact opposed to selective sanctions.

I hope that I have answered at the same time most of the questions put by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury—but he asked specifically whether or not we would recall our ambassador from South Africa. It is not our intention to recall our ambassador there because we believe it is essential to keep open our channels of communication so that we can express our views at the highest level to the South African authorities.

On the question of a halt on new investment, I recognise this proposal and the suggestion that there should be a ban only after a period of time. Again, the Government do not feel that this would have much, if any, economic impact. Indeed, we have been opposed to controls on outward capital flow. The arguments against a ban on new investment apply as they do to the question of sanctions.

Finally, I confirm once again that the Government stand absolutely by the Gleneagles agreement on the question of sporting events. It is a matter for individual sporting clubs to note what the Government's clear view is and to make their own decisions.

Lord Shinwell

My Lords, does not the Minister realise that the language she has just used is quite familiar in this House and in another place? To talk about maintaining the pressure is just idle and futile talk. The time is arriving when we really must do some business in this matter. Several years ago we were faced with a problem not altogether dissimilar in Abyssinia. Then we failed when we should have taken drastic action—draconian measures—such as economic sanctions, if necessary, even if they would have been counter-productive. The question that arises now is this: how long are we prepared to put up with this uncivilised existence?

At the same time, let us not forget that it is impossible for us to work alone and in isolation. We can only act in co-operation with other countries and with allies more powerful than ourselves—politically, economically and financially. What I want to know is this. Is the United States to be brought into this condemnation in order to maintain the pressure in a realistic fashion? Otherwise, what the noble Baroness has been saying—and I mean no offence, because I understand that she is stating the Government's position—is just idle and futile talk.

Baroness Young

My Lords, I have expressed in the strongest language that I can the Government's reaction to the appalling events in South Africa. Let me say to the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, that in the Statement made by my right honourable and learned friend on 22nd March he made plain that my honourable friend Mr. Luce, on summoning the South African Ambassador, asked for the fullest possible investigation into the events. We have subsequently heard that the South African Government have announced that they will set up a judicial inquiry.

I think I have answered the point about sanctions. As the noble Lord himself said, it would not be much use invoking sanctions because they are likely to be ineffective and, in fact, in times gone by have been counter-productive.

The noble Lord spoke of acting in concert. The United States Government have condemned the events. I am sure that the noble Lord will have read the remarks of Mr. Shultz, and we understand that the presidency of the Community is making a statement on behalf of the Community.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the events of last week in Uitenhage are simply a continuation of similar events which have been occurring in that country for the past 60 or 70 years and which are always met by the British Government, of either party, with vapid, if eloquent, protests? Can she tell the House, and indeed people outside this House, what reason there is to suppose that her words this afternoon will have any greater effect in bringing to an end this cruelly oppressive regime than they have in the past?

Can the noble Baroness in particular answer the question which she has not yet answered, put by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, as to whether the British Government are prepared to talk with African leaders, particularly those in the African National Congress and the New Democratic Federation? As her honourable friend the Minister of State in the Foreign Office has already said that the British Government are not prepared to talk to leaders of the ANC until they renounce violence, while still showing that they are prepared to talk to leaders of UNITA, the Angolan guerrilla movement, can she tell the House whether the British Government are now prepared to talk to those leaders of the African majority who represent their people and with whom the Government should be working if they are going to bring the unreformable policy of apartheid to an end?

Baroness Young

My Lords, in answer to the first part of the noble Lord's question, the Statement makes plain that the events which have just occurred are particularly tragic because they fly in the face of certain more hopeful developments that have occurred in South Africa in past months. They are, therefore, all the more to be regretted.

As regards talking to parties in South Africa such as the ANC, the position remains as has been stated.

Lord Harmar-Nicholls

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that no reasonable person can be anything other than appalled at the events which have brought about this Statement from the Government today? Does she not agree that it is perhaps a pity that in the Statement greater emphasis was not made of the fact that the official South African Government have set up a judicial inquiry with the intention of finding out the true facts in detail so that we can then form a judgment, not from an immediate reaction as given by all the media sources, but from the investigation itself?

Is it not a fact that the official Government in South Africa have also deplored the incident and there is every indication that on this occasion they may well want to try to find out what it is all about so as ultimately to form a reasoned opinion? Is my noble friend aware that the extreme reaction and the language used by some noble Lords opposite in querying this Statement and the way in which they have attached to the Statement their general arguments and feelings against South Africa and its system as a whole cannot help the incident on this occasion being examined objectively? Many people will feel that the Government's approach as outlined by my noble friend and the strong representations made in conjunction with European countries, and others, produce results. We have seen many advances from the extreme position that existed 10 years ago in Africa. South Africa may not have gone far enough, and they are not going fast enough, but many of us believe it is wrong that exaggerated criticisms should be made by noble Lords opposite and should be tied to this particular incident, for that may slow down further improvements.

Baroness Young

My Lords, the Government are appalled at the recent events in South Africa and entirely agree with what my noble friend Lord Harmar-Nicholls has just said. We are glad that the South African Government have announced that a judicial inquiry is to be set up. We have condemned the policy of apartheid. What we wish to see is a system of Government which has the support of all South Africans.