HL Deb 19 March 1985 vol 461 cc400-2

2.51 p.m.

Lord Renton

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they intend to monitor how local authorities are effectively organising, training and exercising civil defence volunteers.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Elton)

My Lords, yes. My honourable friend the Minister of State has undertaken in another place that he will continue to monitor local authorities' progress on implementing the 1983 regulations. This will include volunteer activity.

Lord Renton

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that encouraging reply. May I ask him whether he is aware that most local authorities require guidance on the form of organisation that volunteers should be given, or should have? In this connection, will he bear in mind the excellent precedent, commended by Sir Leslie Mayor when he was Co-ordinator of Volunteer Effort in Civil Defence, of the Devon Emergency Volunteers, who are self-governing but under the operational control of the local authority? Will he also bear in mind that Cambridgeshire provides another useful and slightly different precedent?

Lord Elton

My Lords, I am glad to say that the Devon Emergency Volunteers are a very fine organisation—one of the best. They are, of course, a useful model. We would not wish to impose either that model or the good one in Cambridge on other local authorities, which should have discretion to form their forces as suits their needs. If they need advice, I would refer them to Circular No. 2 of 1981.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that one of the problems here is that civil defence organisations are required to take part in the pretence that it is possible to provide civil defence against nuclear war? If the Government were to make it clear that their function was other than that, and that they had a function relating to civil emergencies in the unlikely eventuality of a non-nuclear war—something of that sort—the organisation would be easier and more people would join.

Lord Elton

My Lords, I am aware that the noble Lord opposite believes that it is humane to leave without prepared support the very many thousands of injured and homeless that there would be after a nuclear attack, but I do not share that view. I believe that the civil defence organisation, which is concerned with defence against conventional as well as nuclear attack, is something which even the noble Lord should support.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, the noble Lord fails to distinguish between what is humane and what is inevitable.

Lord Renton

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the help of volunteers in coping with all emergencies, in peace and war, will be welcome to local authorities, and that the view expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Putney, is but a diversion of a somewhat mischievous kind?

Lord Elton

My Lords, since our purpose is to arrive at the proper solution to our problems, I shall limit myself to saying that I believe that the civil defence organisation of this country, properly conducted, is the right one.

Lord Mishcon

My Lords, will the noble Lord the Minister take it that we on these Benches wish to make quite clear a position that has not been clarified up to now? Does he know that the policy of the Opposition is that the truth should be told to the people about the terrible consequences of nuclear war? If they were told that and knew that the situation was a little more helpful if they were to indulge in civil defence activities elsewhere, he might have more volunteers.

Lord Elton

My Lords, the possibility of nuclear war is a terrible possibility, and that is why the country as a whole supports Her Majesty's Government in preparing itself for its eventuality, and also to deter its arrival.