§ 2.40 p.m.
§ Baroness Carnegy of LourMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they intend to make representation to British Telecom in favour of the installation of their new equipment and toughened glass in existing red telephone boxes rather than the replacement of the latter by yellow boxes of United States design, and by open canopies.
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, the Government do not intend to make representations to British Telecom about the design of call boxes. It would not be appropriate for the Government to intervene in a matter which is entirely for the judgment of the company.
§ Baroness Carnegy of LourMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. In spite of what he has said, may I ask whether local planning committees will be consulted before red boxes of Sir Giles Gilbert Scott's distinguished design are demolished wholesale? Furthermore, is there any chance that at least some of the existing boxes might be listed, as are, I believe, some pillar boxes?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, British Telecom's proposals allow for detailed consultation with a wide range of interested organisations, including groups for the disabled, local authorities, environmentalists, planning associations and representatives of business. Noble Lords should make their views known directly to the company.
Lord Bruce of DoningtonMy Lords, can the noble Lord tell the House what endeavours were made to ascertain public reaction to the proposed new colour and new design? Is the noble Lord telling the House that, in spite of the fact that Her Majesty's Government still have a majority holding in the company, they are willing to dissociate themselves completely from the spread of this hideous yellow rash over the countryside?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, British Telecom carried out a number of surveys and consulted widely before introducing their new proposals. I would point out that the Government do not hold a majority shareholding in British Telecom: theirs is a minority shareholding of 48½ per cent.
§ Lord Mackie of BenshieMy Lords, is the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, too young to remember that the colour red has not always had a political connotation? Indeed, when I was young the colour red on the map represented the British Empire.
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I am too young to remember that directly, but I certainly take note of the noble Lord's observation.
§ Baroness Macleod of BorveMy Lords, will the Minister use his good offices to encourage British Telecom to keep to the red telephone boxes, of whatever design, because in very thick fog, which we still get in this country, red can be seen whereas other colours cannot?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I understand that the new telephone boxes are to be made mainly of glass. However, they will be better lit than the existing boxes and should, therefore, be more visible.
§ Baroness Lane-FoxMy Lords, can my noble friend the Minister assure the House that, whatever design prevails, representations will be made by the Government to the company on the need for the disabled and those in wheelchairs to be able to use whatever telephone boxes are eventually chosen?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraCertainly, my Lords; this is very encouraging news, particularly for the disabled and wheelchair-bound users of the boxes. The new boxes will be much easier for them. The doors will be big enough for wheelchairs to enter. The boxes will be flush with the ground, with no step. The actual machinery will be placed lower down so that it can be used from a sitting position.
Lord Bruce of DoningtonMy Lords, will the noble Lord explain to the House what is so objectionable about pillarbox red? Is he aware that in your Lordships' House red is favoured, albeit of a rather deeper hue? Does he anticipate the re-covering of furnishings in your Lordships' House in this sickly yellow?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraNo, my Lords, I do not anticipate that. On the other hand, I do not think we have proposals to sell your Lordships' House.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that what the noble Lord opposite calls a "sickly yellow" and a "yellow rash" could, by a less jaundiced eye, be seen as a golden glow?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I agree with my noble friend.
§ Lord SandysMy Lords, will my noble friend tell the House what is the timescale of replacement and say whether large numbers of boxes are to be replaced in one area at one time or whether there will be a staged phasing over the country? Secondly, has the Royal Fine Art Commission been consulted about the design?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, to answer my noble friend's last question first, I cannot tell him whether the Royal Fine Art Commission has been consulted. I shall endeavour to find out and then write to him. It is a 10-year programme which involves the replacement of about 60,000 red telephone boxes with expenditure approaching £160 million.
§ Lord StrabolgiMy Lords, bearing in mind that the noble Lord said earlier that a number of bodies and commissions had been consulted, and bearing in mind also that he did not know whether or not the Royal Fine Art Commission had been consulted, which I should have thought was crucial. will he say which bodies have been consulted?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I am afraid that I do not know the answer to that. I know merely that a number of bodies have been consulted, but I cannot give details as to which they are.
§ Lord BeloffMy Lords, does my noble friend the Minister not agree that the point about American telephone boxes is that the telephones in them actually work? Is that not the objective which British Telecom should have in mind?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, that is indeed the objective that British Telecom has in mind. It proposes to convert the public telephones into a modern, reliable and clean service.
Lord Wallace of CoslanyMy Lords, will the noble Lord say whether with the new boxes it will be easier to get your money back when you cannot get through?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I think that that is a matter for British Telecom. I am not quite sure how the new boxes will work.
§ Lord BrockwayMy Lords, may I ask whether, in the light of the enormous usefulness and convenience of these telephone boxes, when they are being replaced, a tribute will be paid to Fred Jowett, who was Commissioner of Works and installed them as far back as 1924?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I think that the best I can do is draw the remarks of the noble Lord to the attention of the appropriate parties.