Appropriation (Northern Ireland) Order 1985

HL Deb 11 March 1985 vol 461 cc27-48

4.9 p.m.

Debate resumed.

Lord Hampton

My Lords, perhaps we could return to the appropriation order. I, too, should like to thank the noble Lord the Minister for introducing this appropriation order. I am sorry I have not given him full details of the questions I wish to ask. I apologise to him for being late for his opening speech, and I am glad to see him in his place now. On reading the report of the debate in the other place I was very much struck by how true to form matters were running. The Government spoke with optimism, Labour with considerable gloom; but things here seem to be in greater accord.

I should like to start by referring to the Government's claim that the allocation to Northern Ireland departments for 1985–86 is some £30 million higher than originally planned, and their admission that this is a remarkable fact at a time when public expenditure as a whole is being held strictly at planned levels. I find this encouraging, but would like to ask the following questions: first, how much do we expect to receive from the European Community over this period? Am I right in thinking that this is £19–8 million? Secondly, do we guarantee that this money will be used for a specific purpose, and is this housing? Thirdly, has the European Community so far paid what it has promised, or has there been any hold up? Is the receipt of this money why we can plan increased expenditure?

Then there is the Government claim regarding unemployment that additional jobs were created in 1984 and that it was only because of the higher rate of births that even more people became unemployed. I wonder whether the Minister could expand on this. I believe that he may have touched on it before I entered the Chamber, in which case I apologise. It is encouraging to learn that quite a number of those who had left the Province to live and work overseas are now returned or are planning to return to their homeland. Of course, it can mean a bigger strain on the employment market, but let us rejoice nonetheless at a modestly encouraging sign.

To refer more specifically to the terms of the order, Class II, No. 1, refers to payments to the Industrial Development Board. It has been suggested that while the board has had distinct success in creating new jobs it has sometimes done this at the expense of existing firms in the same trade who, without the help of a subsidy, have suffered by unfair competition and themselves had to dispense with some employees, clearly lessening the value of the whole operation. Can the Minister comment on whether this is so, and, if so, what steps are being taken to prevent a recurrence?

Class II, No. 3, refers to expenditure on the Local Enterprise Development Unit and also on the aircraft and shipbuilding industries. Can the Minister give up-to-date figures for both Shorts and Harland and Wolff? I am mindful of a worry which was forcefully expressed to a colleague and myself when we looked round Shorts two years ago of a possible return to the private sector. May I ask the Minister once again whether privatisation is being considered?

Class VIII, No. 1, refers to expenditure on schools. My noble friend (if I may so refer to him) Lord Blease tells me that I am wandering into a minefield, but I put a question as simply as possible. Can the Minister say whether there have been any real moves towards integrated education apart from Lagan College? And failing that, what steps are taken in schools to see that myths are abandoned and that the other man's viewpoint is considered along with one's own?

In Part II, Class XI, No. 5, £127,000 is granted on account: For the expenditure of the Office of the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints". Can the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, clarify for me what sort of complaints are acceptable for consideration?

It seems to me that how one sees the present situation in the Province depends to some extent at least on how you want to see it. False hope defeats its object, but there seem to me to be grounds for some optimism amidst the gloom. Whenever I visit Northern Ireland I am impressed with the kind hospitality and the warm welcome with which one is received. But very many people are living on low incomes and, despite a considerable housing programme, I am still depressed by the old-fashioned slums such as are hard to find on the mainland. There is much unemployment, and there is much rebuilding which needs to be done. Somehow, surely, the two should be better balanced.

Another point I should like to raise is this. Can the Minister give us any details about the burning of lignite for the generation of electricity? Is it hoped that costs can be cut this way? Some information is just coming through. Finally, might I say that the situation was aptly summed up when it was said: The peoples of both traditons have a common interest in finding a better way of ordering their future". Let us offer them every encouragement.

4.15 p.m.

Lord Hylton

My Lords, after various criticisms that I have made in the past, I think I should congratulate the noble Lord on the Front Bench and his noble friend the Chief Whip for arranging to take this debate on a major Northern Ireland order during prime parliamentary time. I know that the television cameras are not switched on today, but at least we can hope that the members of the Parliamentary Press Gallery have not yet gone home for tea.

I have given notice to the noble Lord of a number of points, and I should like to start with voluntarily maintained schools. It is well known that these schools can reclaim a grant of 85 per cent. of their approved capital expenditure. This, of course, is comparable to the situation in England, and it is satisfactory; but I am informed that at the present time in Northern Ireland there are considerable delays about actually paying out this grant, and the result for schools which qualify can be serious. It means they have to pay the full amount. They may even have to go into overdraft to do so, and they are not quickly able to receive their grant. Can the noble Lord say what can be done to speed up this matter, as even now, despite financial stringencies in England, it is my experience, at any rate in Somerset, that the expenditure and the receipt of grant are more or less simultaneous.

With regard to maintained schools, and perhaps I should say schools generally, it is well known that, particularly in the Belfast area, many schools are contracting in numbers, but there are a few whose rolls are expanding. Can the noble Lord assure me that in these expanding situations it will be possible for the schools to get their needed books and equipment promptly and without long delays? Would he perhaps see whether the Department of Education could look into the question of the pooling of books and equipment as between expanding and contracting schools?

I come next to a programme called Action for Community Employment, commonly known as ACE. It is well known that this has been a considerable benefit to quite a number of voluntary bodies. It has of course also helped a number of unemployed people to get work experience and paid employment. However, it is only possible to have an employee under this scheme for a period of one year, and there are numerous other rules and regulations—and, of course, it is only possible to take on a person who is unemployed at the time.

Would the Government consider reviewing the scheme as it affects the voluntary bodies, to see whether a greater degree of flexibility could be incorporated into the working of the scheme? This would be helpful if it could be done. The Government might like, for instance, to think whether it would be possible to keep people for periods longer than one year, and whether this amount of expenditure which is flowing through voluntary bodies might not be more effective if its terms and conditions were altered and improved.

I come now to the question of the new prison at Maghaberry. This, I understand, is due for completion at the end of 1985. When it comes into use it will very much reduce the present overcrowding in Belfast Prison; it will lead to better conditions for remand prisoners; and it will make possible the closure of the women's prison at Armagh, which is an old building and demands a high staffing ratio. These things will be of great benefit to everybody concerned. Can the noble Lord say whether he has any hopes of the opening date of the new prison being brought forward?

My next point concerns the ancient and historic walls of the city of Derry, which are open to the public for 95 per cent. or more of their circuit and are a popular attraction. The fly in the ointment is that there is a small army post which occupies one corner of the walls and makes it impossible to walk round them completely. This is something which I raised with the predecessor of the noble Lord, the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield. I cannot help feeling that with modern technology it should be possible for the army to remove that blockhouse and to carry out their observations and surveillance by other means. The point is pressing this year because of the reunion or rally of the clan O'Doherty. As the noble Lord who is to reply to the debate is a Scotsman, he will appreciate the importance of this kind of thing and particularly its importance for bringing in overseas visitors and people from the new world. If that post could be modified, replaced or done away with completely, it would be a great benefit.

I should like to mention the public and police liaison committee, to which I have referred before. The city of Derry has had a committee of this type functioning very well, despite considerable difficulties, since 1970. Surely the time is coming when this system should be extended, and reduplicated in other parts of Northern Ireland. Everybody agrees that co-operation between the police and the public is vital. Why cannot it be organised as it is in Derry, with access from the committee to the RUC divisional commander and also access at a lower level from community areas to individual local police stations?

While we are on matters of security and the police I should like to mention joy-riding in stolen cars. This happens mainly at night. Everybody appreciates the extreme difficulties facing security forces in distinguishing between the casual joy-rider doing it for kicks and the terrorist who has some far more sinister intent in crashing through checkpoints. What we are trying to do is to avoid people who are not terrorists being killed and severely wounded. Will the noble Lord and his colleagues who are responsible for security consider the possibility of using spiked chains or other devices which will halt the car without killing the occupants? I look forward to the noble Lord's reply on that.

Finally, I feel I should touch on employment and unemployment, which have been mentioned by several previous speakers. I am particularly concerned because levels of unemployment are considerably higher in Catholic areas compared with Protestant areas. I am sorry to say that it is also the case, taking the population of Northern Ireland as a whole, that unemployment bears more heavily on the Catholic than it does on the Protestant population. There are some historic and structural reasons which explain why this is still the case.

However, I had hoped, as had many other people, that direct rule would bring in complete fairness in these matters, particularly into the recruitment of new employees and the promotion of existing employees. If one considers the reports, studies and surveys of the Fair Employment Agency ever since 1977 and right up to the present, it is clear that all is not yet right in these matters. It is clear that among the offenders are local government, the Civil Service and the Northern Ireland electricity service, all three of which one should have thought would be responsive to the pushing, prodding and supervision of the Government. The present unsatisfactory situation, it cannot be denied, contributes to a sense of injustice among many Catholics. While it may not perhaps create alienation—a word about which there has been some dispute and debate—it does not help things and indeed makes people feel disaffected. Therefore, I hope that the Government will look into this and do everything they can, particularly on recruitment and promotion.

4.26 p.m.

Viscount Brookeborough

My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for his introduction of the order and also to say how pleased I am to be speaking after the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, because luckily he was almost as out of order as I intend to be. I should like to thank my noble friends Lord Denham and Lord Lyell. I gave them notice that I would be slightly out of order and I am delighted that Lord Hylton has started the rot.

In Part II of the schedule, Vote 1, Class XI relates to the expenditure of the Assembly. Since what I should like to discuss is the atmosphere in which the Assembly has to operate, I feel that that gives me a tenuous right to raise the matter of the 10 murders of servicemen in the last 14 days. First, I welcome the statement made by the Secretary of State at Newry that political progress shrinks into insignificance when compared with the job of getting rid of terrorism. My noble friend Lord Moyola and I have been saying that twice a year in this House and so we can only say "Hear, hear" to the statement. I believe that if we could get rid of terrorism, the Unionist majority would be able to accommodate and to adapt to the needs of time in a way they cannot begin to do now and, further, it is possible that the minority SDLP might find itself able to get back into the Assembly. It is totally impossible for that party to do so without violence being reduced.

In the last 14 days 10 members of the security forces have been killed. I do not know whether the House knows it, but four of them were Roman Catholics. All members of our security forces in Ulster are brave men, but especially brave are those members who are Roman Catholics. Last week the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, discussed the double standards of remarks by Cardinal O'Fiaich and no less a person than Peter Barry, the Foreign Minister of the Irish Republic. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, that such statements and those of other Republicans justify the prolonging of the IRA campaign. One could say that they are signing the death warrants of members of the security forces, and in particular, those few Roman Catholics in the services. The cardinal condemned the act of violence, but he never condemns the IRA without equivocation. He was at it again yesterday in the United States of America. Unbelievably to me, with four of his flock murdered—two murdered in the precincts of chapels and one on the steps of his own cathedral—he could not even bring himself to go to the funeral service of one of those four. I think that that is a disgrace.

As for the Irish Foreign Minister, I ask my noble friend to suggest to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State that he conveys this message to Mr. Barry. He has taken on board two tasks. The first is to proclaim at every turn the sectarian nature of our Ulster forces. Secondly, he has taken it upon himself to be the spokesman for the Roman Catholics in Ulster. After four deaths of Roman Catholics in our security forces, is it too much to ask of him to give some recognition of the magnificent role played by those few Roman Catholics in the past? Could he not bring himself to face the fact that the proportion of Roman Catholics to Protestants in those forces is due not to their sectarian nature but to the fact that their position is so heroic, so precarious and so dangerous?

What, my Lords, should be asked of the Irish Republic at the moment?—because there are still things that they could do which would help in solving murders and other crimes. The Irish Government should accede to the request which has been made to them by the Garda to allow for seven-day detention as we have in the Prevention of Terrorism Act here. We all know that the proper relationship between the interrogator and the prisoner can be established only after a considerable period of time. Secondly, Dublin should be pressed to allow the presence of a Royal Ulster Constabulary interrogator, under the supervision of the Garda, at the questioning of someone who is suspected of a crime in Ulster. I believe that those modest steps would produce a solution to a lot of crime. They would produce prima facie cases which would allow the Criminal Jurisdiction Act to be effective.

Having got that off my chest, may I turn now to matters much closer to the order. The subject that I should like to raise and of which I have given notice to the Minister is that of agriculture and especially field drainage. Two or three days ago I noticed my noble friend as he crept past our gate and went a few miles away to go and look at drainage, in case he did not really know what it was all about. I rather wondered whether he was not coming down to have a ride on the goat! However, at least I know that he knows what a drain is.

The problem is that in December the Secretary of State for Agriculture gave notice of changes in the capital grants and especially a reduction in the capital grant for drainage and the removal of hedge clearance from the grant-aided category. This is creating very serious difficulties in LFAs (less favoured areas). The reduction of the drainage grant is from 65 per cent. to 35 per cent. and drainage is an extremely expensive operation. I believe that it could jeopardise the future viability of communities in the LFAs. I know that farms which are on the development programme can still have a high rate of grant, but in County Fermanagh, where we have a thousand farms under development, the remaining farms will never qualify to have a development scheme, so that to all intents and purposes the 35 per cent. is the rate which stands.

My noble friend knows the problem. Drainage reduces the disadvantage in disadvantaged areas. In the statement concerned, and subsequent statements, it has been made clear that the real reason for the reduction was the conflict with conservation in the drainage of areas in this country. In Northern Ireland, in an LFA area, there is no conflict. We are not draining lakes and marshes. We are draining clay drumlins. Without that land being drained, cattle and sheep can be supported only by the use of a lot of expensive feedingstuff; and that, too, costs more in Northern Ireland—£12 a tonne more—than it does on the mainland. When the land is drained—and the noble Lord has seen it—it produces very good grass which is either grazed or goes into fodder and the viability of the farm is improved. On one farm, very close to where my noble friend found himself, on land well-drained as a result of the grant, cattle are able to be kept with an input of a mere £20 of bought feedingstuff. So far only 11 per cent. of the whole of Fermanagh has been drained under these grants, so it is to me a tragedy that they should be cut off just when the smaller, less well-able people were making use of the grant.

The removal of hedges is an emotive thing in this country, but with us, even if you took out every hedge on a farm except the march fence, in a lot of LFAs you still would not have a very big field. The environmental problem is not an issue with us. I appeal to my noble friend to have another look at that matter and see whether he cannot persuade his colleague to turn back the clock and give us more grants for it.

I gave the noble Lord notice that I would raise the question of milk quotas in that the outgoer scheme in Northern Ireland has not produced enough quota to be allocated to farms which have special hardship. I should like to know what will be the position. Is it going to be equal misery throughout the whole of the United Kingdom, or is Northern Ireland going to have more misery than other areas?

I want to say one thing about the Assembly itself. I did not approve of the Assembly when it was first proposed, but it has been there, it is in Northern Ireland, and in regard to its inquiries it is producing quite a lot of good work. But the real issue is that the Government must really give that Assembly something to do. The Assembly cannot go on having inquiries without some specific role to play other than just to talk. I appeal to the Government to look at the question of, perhaps, turning it into the top tier of local government. One thing that they should not do is to abolish it, because that would leave a lot of men, some of them quite young, without a platform and they would be pretty discontented if they lost it. I welcome this order.

4.38 p.m.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the Minister for introducing this Northern Ireland appropriation order. I must apologise for the fact that I am speaking a little late in this debate. I had put down a series of Questions for Written Answer relating to the Northern Ireland Assembly and received the Answers this morning. If I do not raise the subject now, I do not think that it can be raised until the next appropriation order debate. My Questions to the Minister related to the part of the appropriation order which deals with the expenditure of the Northern Ireland Assembly. I shall be as brief as possible. My first Question was: To ask Her Majesty's Government how many times the Northern Ireland Assembly has met". The reply from the Minister was: Up to 5 March there have been 162 Assembly meetings". That figure, my Lords, represents less than one-and-a-half days a week since the Assembly was formed.

Another of my Questions was: To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the average attendance at meetings of the Northern Ireland Assembly". The Minister replied: No record is maintained of numbers of Members present at sittings of the Northern Ireland Assembly". I would ask the Minister in his reply this afternoon to say briefly why that should be so.

A further Question was: To ask Her Majesty's Government what are the maximum allowances at present for Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly, and what is the average amount claimed by each member". I shall not go through the list given in the reply, other than to quote the end product, which was the average amount claimed. It says: The average amount claimed by each Member from the start of the Assembly in October 1982 to the 31 January is as follows: Travelling allowance, £5,193; Secretarial and research allowances, £11,788". Those are the figures for two years three months. I think I am right in saying that the Assembly Members receive two-thirds of the salary of Members of another place. That indicates—or perhaps the Minister in his reply will debunk the point that I am making—that we have within Great Britain and Northern Ireland an elected assembly the Members of which can draw £17,500 in public money and yet not make an appearance.

I was all in favour, because I remember the battles that took place during the time of the last Labour Government, of Northern Ireland receiving additional seats at Westminster in order to carry the workload. They of course were forthcoming, and they are now better represented than they were. I would not question that they were entitled to those seats, but I find it somewhat disturbing for us to be told that it is so important and so necessary. I do not say that it is not, but what comes across quite clearly is that if the average number of meetings cover one and a half days a week it is not doing very much. It is not doing as much as the GLC, which is being phased out of existence. It certainly is not doing as much as the City Council in Manchester, which I left, or the City Council in Leeds.

I know the situation in Northern Ireland is rather different from anywhere else in Great Britain but I find it rather odd that we have two such varying sets of standards. We have people who I think are receiving a rather handsome remuneration for doing a job, at the most, for one and a half days a week on appearance, and there is no guarantee that they have to attend. That contrasts with the situation on the mainland in Great Britain where there are authorities covering a larger population and having almost unitary responsibilities. For instance, I just picked the GLC out of the air and I am not particularly supporting their arguments on every issue, but that authority covers millions of people. Also we have the great cities of the North, and I think that the six metropolitan counties are all bigger in population than Northern Ireland; and nobody thinks for one moment that they are doing such an important job that the people running those authorities ought really to be receiving a greater consideration than they are.

The point I am trying to make is this. How long are we going to accept a situation where the global sum of money must be pretty significant—larger than any other local authority in this country is paying out to its public representatives who, by the way, only get paid if they turn up and do not get paid if they do not turn up? I would take issue with the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, who said just now that the Assembly is doing a good job. First of all, the major minority party do not see it as a forum at all and certainly do not attend. I think there is a role for a forum in Northern Ireland and I would prefer, as most of your Lordships would, to see an elected one and to see it functioning. But I do not think we can go on indefinitely in a situation where publicly-elected members to an assembly, within the control of another place, and this finally, are able to avail themselves of these sums of money with no move forward whatsoever towards a political settlement.

I think that the whole situation at present smacks of an endless tunnel with no glimmer of daylight where one can see something contructive coming out of it at the end. I make the point, and quite forcibly, that I do not know of any major debate which has taken place in the Northern Ireland Assembly which has had any bearing on any major decision taken by the Government. It may be a sounding board, when people are brutally murdered, for politicians in Northern Ireland to express their dismay, quite rightly, at some of the horrific things that go on. But I am sure that we do not want it to continue just on the basis that every time there is a disgraceful atrocity committed by either side in Northern Ireland—and one has to say that they are committed by either side, although the majority appear to be committed by those following a particular train of thought there—this assembly will meet only on the Monday or Tuesday following a disgraceful atrocity committed over the weekend. I think that taxpayers in this country are entitled to expect a little bit more for the money they are investing in this particular institution.

I hope, since I have to some extent been the devil's advocate, that the Minister will take note of some of the points I have raised. I do not think that the taxpayers in this country will indefinitely accept this type of burden for people who do not have even the discipline of having to show their faces.

4.47 p.m.

Lord Fitt

My Lords, I rise for less than a minute to reinforce a point made by my noble friend Lord Prys-Davies in relation to the situation of 41 young nurses in the Royal Victoria Hospital—and we have not as yet ascertained the figures for other hospitals in Northern Ireland—after the completion of their three or four years' training. I have always regarded nursing as a very noble profession. I may be inclined to be biased because two of my own daughters are nurses, but I think it is very sad to reflect that these young nurses have given more than three years of their lives, in the very difficult circumstances of Northern Ireland, and particularly at the Royal Victoria Hospital, which is the hospital which takes in most of the wounded and those who have been caught up in terrorist offences. It also applies to the Mater Hospital.

Having given of their all for three or four years and having completed their training, they are then told that there is no place for them to continue their employment in the nursing profession in Northern Ireland. They are then subject to the indignity—and it is an indignity so far as those young girls are concerned—of signing the unemployment register in Northern Ireland. I would say that it is a very sad commentary on the administration of the nursing profession in Northern Ireland if those girls, having undergone their three or four years' training, cannot be assured of a place to nurse within their profession.

I do not think it will help the nursing profession in Northern Ireland—it certainly will not help recruitment—if it becomes clear that, after three years of service training to be a nurse, you are then cast on the waste heap, because young girls will then refrain from going into the nursing profession. So I want to reinforce, with all the strength at my command, the point made by my noble friend Lord Prys-Davies.

There is another point, which concerns the great turmoil which is taking place in County Down because of the Government's proposals for reorganising the hospitals in that area. I understand, through contact with them, that three or four hospitals which have been there for many generations are now to be closed down and that people who would normally use the facilities at those hospitals will have to travel 20 or 30 miles to Belfast.

They will not recognise that there have to be economies made in the health service. Those hospitals have been giving a service to the whole community in County Down and people will find it very, very difficult to travel to Belfast. Many of the hospitals in question deal with the aged, infirm and geriatric people who live in those areas and the transport facilities that will be needed to transfer them to Belfast will almost equal the cost incurred in closing down these units. May I ask the Minister whether he is aware of the concern? I am certain that he must be aware, because even I, although I am not an elected representative, receive many communications from people in that area who are very concerned over the prospect of the closure of these hospitals.

4.49 p.m.

Lord Blease

My Lords, I rise to support my noble friend Lord Prys-Davies on the Front Bench, particularly in the context of his scrutiny of this appropriation order and the points he has put forward. I also join him in thanking the noble Lord the Minister for his presentation of this appropriation order. It has been a very wide-ranging debate covering a number of subjects, and I certainly look forward with great interest to the Minister's attempt to reply to the matters raised.

I was faced with a dilemma in attempting to raise in a scrutinising manner—the manner which the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, mentioned—the real issues that are before us in this appropriation order. But I am afraid I must repeat what I have already said in this House: that, so far as the Northern Ireland economy is concerned and so far as the social wellbeing of all Northern Ireland's citizens is concerned, these appropriation orders are among the most important business listed for debate in Parliament. However, it would be foolish to pretend that in these debates we do more than perform a few ritualistic gestures. I would hasten to add that that is not a criticism of the noble Lord the Minister, nor of the previous persons who have held the Northern Ireland brief. Nor, indeed, is it a criticism of the concern about the commitment to Northern Ireland affairs displayed by other noble Lords in this House.

It is my opinion that the present parliamentary procedures for debating these appropriation orders do not allow for the necessary critical scrutiny demanded by the sums required or the policies pursued. Noble Lords will know that the sums for appropriation have been culled from the various proposals, plans and policies, and historical criteria, put forward by Northern Ireland departments. These appropriation measures have, in turn, been influenced, fashioned and tailored by the Treasury in the context of overall United Kingdom factors.

While I fully accept the obligations to uphold the Treasury parity principle, in my opinion there is no good reason to believe that the economic policies which are deemed suitable for the United Kingdom as a whole are in the best interests of Northern Ireland. What Northern Ireland needs at the present time is an economic strategy designed to achieve competitive economic growth and, simultaneously, to reduce its financial dependence on Great Britain. I seriously doubt the effectiveness of some of the appropriation measures and the efficacy of the proposed financial provisions to meet the needs of the Northern Ireland people. These needs were fully outlined by my noble friend Lord Prys-Davies and by others.

But more crucial and much more important is the remoteness of the decision-making process, which prevents dynamic participation in the Province. So instead of direct involvement, commitment, cooperation and accountability in order to promote the success of decisions, we have this conventional debate with hopeful probing and pointed questions, and sometimes wild stabbing at events as they occur in Northern Ireland, about measures which have already been firmly decided. The appropriation order before us has already been marked down and decided upon.

For these reasons, I request the Minister to draw to the attention of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland the need for more dynamic and meaningful parliamentary procedures to suitably deal with these appropriation orders. I know, as the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, has said, that we are now in prime parliamentary time. I do not believe that the proper way to exercise the necessary scrutiny of the policies being pursued is by raising matters by means of questions and answers across the Floor of the House. Indeed, I would support the idea that the Northern Ireland Assembly ought to be given more work.

If this were an appropriate occasion, or were the Committee stage of a debate, I would feel that I could put forward some reasoned reply to the noble Lord, Lord Dean, in connection with the work of the Northern Ireland Assembly. The fact that the Assembly meets for one and a half days a week on average does not mean that that is the complete work of the persons involved in the Assembly. The committee work of the Assembly is a much more important role. I certainly agree with the noble Lord when he says that the Assembly ought to be given more credence; that it ought to be given more assistance to carry on its work; and that its opinions ought to be adhered to, or at least commented upon, by the Government. In this respect I would draw the Minister's attention to page 8 of the order, Class XI, No. 1.

To support the points I want to make, I should like to give three brief quotations from statements. Last Thursday, 6th March, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the right honourable Douglas Hurd, publically declared: The Government remains fully committed to a robust and resolute security policy and to search for greater political stability in Northern Ireland". I totally agree with that, but I do not think it is enough. In November 1984 the Roman Catholic bishop, Dr. Cahal Daly, stated: The only effective way to end subversive violence is to tackle the deprivation and alienation on which it feeds". I am pleased to add my final quotation, which was made on Friday last, 7th March, by the Northern Ireland Youth Forum, which is the representative body of all youth organisations in the Province. It issued a public appeal to all Northern Ireland politicians to "grow up" and start talking to each other. The young people's message was: We are sick of violence. Follow our example. If we can bridge social, political and religious differences, so can others in the community". I have already mentioned the statement by Mr. Hurd, and his commitment to security and his search for political stability. I believe that the vast majority of sections in the Northern Ireland community would strongly urge the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Mr. Hurd, publically to voice a third dimension to the two already mentioned by adding a sustained programme of economic development and social justice, and "a better life for all" in the Province. That is a key matter. I am not in any way disparaging the other two, but I think we must go forward with this to unite the people. The three dimensions are an important facet of political life in Northern Ireland. The absence of the third dimension makes a nonsense of the other two.

Would it be an acceptable part of the proposed shuttle diplomacy to now invite all members of the Northern Ireland Assembly to join and actively participate in this economic crusade, even if at this stage some members may not feel able to participate in the other aspects of the Assembly's role and functions? The report of the Assembly on economic strategy has already been mentioned from the Opposition Front Bench. This report consists of four volumes, and was forwarded to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on 17th December 1984. It contains some 60 recommendations for dealing with the Northern Ireland economy.

When does the Northern Ireland Office propose to provide a considered reply to the report and the recommendations? I think it is crucial that a reply should come forward urgently in this respect, not only because of the manner in which this point was stressed by the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, but also because of the manner and tone in which the noble Lord, Lord Dean, put his questions in connection with the work of the Assembly. It is important for the credibility of the Assembly and for the future of the Assembly that its proposals are commented upon. Otherwise the view will be sustained that Northern Ireland representations are taken little heed of, so far as accountability in Northern Ireland affairs is concerned, in discussions and debates in the United Kingdom.

I will deal now with another aspect of the Industrial Development Board. The Belfast Telegraph on 19th February 1985 and the Belfast Newsletter on 5th March 1985 both featured articles about the IDB's submissions and evidence to the Northern Ireland Assembly's Economic Committee and an IDB study paper privately circulated under the title Encouraging Enterprise: the IDB's Strategy Towards the 1990s. Both reports have given rise to considerable anxiety about the present roles, functions and staffing of the IDB. Can the Minister say when the IDB document Encouraging Enterprise will be made available to interested people?

Also, is the, aggressive approach of the IDB to job creation"— to quote from evidence submitted by an 1DB representative to the Assembly's Economic Committee—being inhibited through lack of adequate staffing? Perhaps the Minister can deal with those points and give a short answer.

I will conclude by referring to a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, and to which the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, also made reference. The noble Lord, Lord Hampton, spoke about integrated education and commented that it was a minefield. Minefields can be places of casualties, but they can also be places of gold. The two have some relevance to the issue of integrated education. There can be tremendous benefits, and nuggets of gold can emerge from proper policies in relation to integrated education so far as Northern Ireland community relations are concerned.

For that reason, I welcome the statement made by Mr. Nicholas Scott, Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, to the Education Committee of the Northern Ireland Assembly on 27th February 1985. I will quote from his remarks: There is one other objective to which I would like to draw the attention of the Assembly before I draw my remarks to a conclusion; that of the schools' contribution in fostering good community relations in Northern Ireland. If we believe that education changes attitudes and perceptions—and if we do not believe that, I would have thought, much of the need for education and the basis of education would disappear—and if we believe that it develops young people's ideals and values as well as their knowledge and skills, there is an inescapable responsibility on schools to continue and to increase their efforts to break down the community barriers that we have here in the Province". He went on to deal with the ways in which schools have been co-operating, and concluded this particular aspect of his speech with this statement: I do not seek short-term solutions in community relations, any more than I do in other dimensions of school development that I have described. But let us not lose sight of the long-term benefit that the success of such a policy could bring to Northern Ireland. None of these changes will happen without commitment by the Government, no less than by the schools. I wish to assure the Assembly that the Government have that commitment". I welcome and support that statement, which has a bearing on education, by the Under-Secretary of State for Northern ireland.

The House may like to know that there is in Northern Ireland the All Children Together movement. I believe it has great potential if it is supported, and if it broadens its horizons to cover more than Lagan College, to embrace the needs of the whole of the Province in Northern Ireland. I am a member of the Belfast Charitable Trust for integrated education. Its activities are based on a planning study for the development of integrated education in the City of Belfast that envisages the opening of a series of integrated schools over the next five years. I hope that we shall have an opportunity in the near future to debate this matter of integrated education. I have today put down an Unstarred Question which may provide such an opportunity.

I have spoken at some length and will only add that the Minister has been very warmly welcomed in Northern Ireland, especially in the agricultural field. He has travelled widely, but I am sorry that he stopped at the gate of the noble Viscount. Lord Brookeborough. I am sure that the next time he travels that road he will call at the noble Viscount's mansion and farm, where I am certain he will receive a warm welcome. I support my noble friend on the Front Bench and this order.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I am sure we would all agree with the observation made by the noble Lord. Lord Hylton, at the beginning of his remarks that we are all getting prime time; and that we should use that time, which is so valuable to your Lordships, as effectively as we can. For my part, I believe that we have had an excellent and thorough debate scrutinising the entire order and the estimates. I am more than impressed; I am very grateful for the attention that has been paid by noble Lords to the supplementary estimates. Vote 11 has been mentioned several times, as has Vote 6 and Vote 8. It is very gratifying that we use prime time in this way.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, mentioned a number of points. First, he inquired about the Assembly and asked me how many recommendations have been accepted. I hope that, in the course of my opening remarks, I shall be able to give the noble Lord some satisfaction on that particular score. As all noble Lords who live in Northern Ireland or who are aware of activities in Northern Ireland will know, the Assembly has made a valuable contribution in scrutinising the work of the department of the Northern Ireland Office.

Since its establishment in 1982, the Assembly has produced 92 reports. I am not able to tell the noble Lord exactly how many have been laid before Parliament but the topics they covered have gone as wide as industrial development incentives, aid for agriculture, youth training programmes, and of course public expenditure priorities. The Assembly has further considered 24 proposals for draft orders in council. In addition, more than 550 items of subordinate legislation have been referred to the Assembly.

I cannot give an indication—let along a precise figure—of the number of recommendations which have been accepted, but I would stress that the Government's perception of public expenditure priorities to which the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, referred specifically is very much in line with that of the Assembly. We believe that the Assembly, and in particular the Finance and Personnel Committee, has made a most valuable contribution to consideration of where our priorities should lie in the matter of economics in the Province. We find it especially gratifying that both we—that is, the Government—and the Assembly think in a like way. We hope that our ideas will indeed bear fruit.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, had one further point regarding the Assembly; he asked about job creation. I stress to him, and to your Lordships, that the Government accept, indeed, endorse, the Assembly's view that the highest possible priority should be accorded to the creation of employment and, above all, to the regeneration of the economy of the Province. To that extent they aim to ensure that the necessary funds are made available to the Province's main job creation agencies—the Industrial Development Board, to which the noble Lord, Lord Blease, specifically drew attention and, of course, the LEDU. We wish to ensure that the lack of financial resources and other resources will not be allowed to constrain the job creation drive. I hope that that reply will be of some value to the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies.

The noble Lord also asked about receipts from the European Community for 1984–85 and 1985–86. I realised, even as the noble Lord asked me, that there would need to be a considerable amount of digging out of figures and sifting in order to answer him today. I understand that it is even more complex than I had thought and I therefore ask your Lordships' indulgence to write to the noble Lord with that information in so far as we are able to give a satisfactory answer on the specific point he raised.

The noble Lord also asked about the Northern Ireland Housing Executive. Earlier in the financial year the Housing Executive identified some variation from its housing targets on a number of expenditure blocks which resulted in a projected net underspend of about £11.3 million on its approved budget. I stress to the noble Lord, and to your Lordships, that this does not mean any change in the actual housing strategy. The executive attributes the underspend to slower than anticipated progress on site, though the programme of new starts approved for the year is now broadly on target. It also attributes the underspend to unexpected additional receipts from house sales. All forward estimates in the public sector are monitored during the year and I am sure the noble Lord will accept that there is nothing unusual about adjustments to plans being made to reflect changes which can arise for all kinds of different reasons. The underspend declared by the executive also reflects the improved monitoring of programmes on the ground, which the department has been seeking, and it provides a much firmer base for forward programming and estimating.

As a result of the regular monitoring assessments by all the Northern Ireland departments we found it possible at a later stage in the financial year to make available the increased sum of £6 million to the executive to allow it to repay certain loans from building societies which would otherwise have created a call on housing resources in future financial years. As a result of this, total growth housing expenditure for 1984–85 will be in the region of £520 million.

The noble Lord also asked about the Irish language. As he will see, I might have some problems with this myself in the course of my reply. We accept the importance of the Irish language and, indeed, its culture. It is important that it is fully recognised in the educational activities and, above all, the related activities of that type in Northern Ireland. Irish is studied by more than 25,000 pupils in Northern Ireland's secondary schools. It is developing to a significant extent in a proportion of primary schools. The noble Lord will accept that the curriculum is not dictated or controlled by the Government, nor, indeed, by the Department of Education. It is essentially a matter for school authorities and, above all, head teachers. The Government recognise the right of parents to have their children educated through the medium of the Irish language. On 6th April last year it was announced that Bunscoil Gaelach—and I am sure that the Official Report will be able to ascertain that it is spelled nothing like I have pronounced it—the independent school in Shaw's Road, Belfast, would be recognised as a grant-aided school from 1st September 1984. A special unit in which tuition is provided through the medium of the Irish language has also been approved in Steelstown Primary School in Londonderry.

I must apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, for missing the first 10 seconds of his remarks. I was battling my way through the throng to get here, but I am sure he appreciates that such things can and frequently do happen in the best of schedules. The noble Lord referred to the IDB's policy of assisting industries which are in competition with others, resulting in some of the latter going out of business. I regret that I am not aware of the specific instances that the noble Lord had in mind, but perhaps he will allow me to arrange for my honourable friend in another place to look into this particular matter and write to him.

The noble Lord also asked about integrated education. It is the policy of the Government, and has been the policy of successive Administrations in Northern Ireland, that integrated education should be encouraged wherever there is a local wish for it. I refer the noble Lord to what I said a few moments ago to the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, about head teachers and school authorities. The Government will support practical proposals which they are satified reflect the wishes of local people. I assure the noble Lord that there is no question of forcing integration on anyone who does not want it.

The noble Lord referred also to Shorts and the possible privatisation of that company. I cannot add anything to the Statement made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in another place on 6th December last year. The noble Lord will be aware that in that Statement my right honourable friend announced that, in principle, Shorts would be a candidate for privatisation and that the Government will be considering the matter on the basis of specialist advice on the feasibility, costs, benefits and other details of disposal, including how best to secure employee involvement. I stress that we hope the advisers will begin their assignment this Monday.

The noble Lord also referred to lignite. The significance of lignite in relation to the generation of electricity is considerable. At present tests are in progress to discover whether a processed form of lignite should be used in the Belfast west power station. I am afraid that the results of that inquiry will not be known for some time. However, the major use for lignite is likely to be the generation of electricity at what we call "mine mouth" power stations, which will require considerable planning and other forms of economic activity. The building of such items as power stations is something that can be carried forward only over a considerable time—indeed, a certain number of years.

The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, put forward a number of points. First, he asked about the 85 per cent. grant and also mentioned the happy acronym ACE—Action for Community Employment. The noble Lord will be aware, and I am sure your Lordships will be interested to know, that ACE and the community programmes in Great Britain are designed to enhance the employment prospects for those who have been unemployed for over one year and at the same time to benefit the community. I stress to the noble Lord—I am sure he is aware of it—that ACE has been highly successful, that job targets have been exceeded over the past two years, and that the target for 1985–86 is 3,500 jobs. The scheme is continually monitored by the Department of Economic Development to ensure its effectiveness.

The noble Lord also raised the question of capital grants to schools. He will be interested to know that under the regulations governing the payment of building grants to voluntary schools, payment can be made only on approved expenditure already incurred by the school trustees. The Department of Education is conscious of the trustee's cash-flow problems and endeavours to make payments with as little delay as possible, but some checks have to be made to satisfy the Government's accounting rules. I assure the noble Lord that those checks do not go beyond normal accounting prudence.

To assist trustees at voluntary schools with their cash-flow problems, in 1981 the Government removed the previous requirement that 5 per cent. of the estimated cost of the work should be met by the trustees before any grant would be paid. Originally the requirement was that 10 per cent. would have to be paid by the trustees, but that was brought down to 5 per cent. in 1975.

The noble Lord raised a number of points concerning Maghaberry, the city walls of Derry and joy-riders. Of course those matters fall to the Northern Ireland Office but I am afraid that they do not relate to transferred services which we are dealing with in these valuable Supplementary Estimates today. I am sure that he will agree that they do not come within the ambit of the appropriation order which we are discussing this afternoon, but I shall draw all the matters that he raised to the attention of my right honourable friend and my honourable friends in another place.

The noble Lord also raised the question of discrimination in employment. It is illegal in Northern Ireland in all categories of employment—private companies as well as the public service. Your Lordships will be aware that the Fair Employment Agency which the Government set up in 1976 has the task of promoting equality in employment. It has legal powers to investigate allegations of unlawful discrimination and to provide remedies. I stress to the noble Lord that the Government are fully committed to equality of opportunity in Northern Ireland as well as everywhere else.

My noble friend Lord Brookeborough raised several interesting points, one or two of which were on the fringe of relevance but they were nevertheless very welcome. I shall bring my noble friend's compliments on the statement at Newry of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State to his notice. I am sure that your Lordships will be interested, and my right honourable friend even more so, in the various messages to Mr. Barry.

My noble friend raised the question of drainage in Fermanagh. He and your Lordships will be pleased to see that I am wearing a Fermanagh tie, which is one of the few awarded to me by a local council in Northern Ireland. I regard it as a trophy not of war but of mere combat, since I survived one and a half hours of close questioning. It was what the French would call an assemblée mouvementée when I was in Enniskillen town hall. That was in July, and afterwards I was given this lovely Fermanagh tie.

I stress to my noble friend and your Lordships that when I am covering drainage in Fermanagh at no time is there any creeping past his gate. I was not aware of any goats in Fermanagh. But there is a slightly interesting double entendre to the thought of goats. From what my noble friend and various other people have suggested to me, I do not think that goats would be applicable to me. First, I am a bachelor. I also understand that there is some aspect of goats in the ceremonies of one or two of the orders in Northern Ireland. Those two matters would be non-transferable, I think.

My noble friend asked about drainage and hedge removal grants in Fermanagh. As my noble friend pointed out, the question of hedge removal grants was covered by my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture in his announcement last December. The announcement also covered changes in drainage grants, which, as I am sure my noble friend appreciates, apply thoughout the United Kingdom and not just in Fermanagh. The elimination of hedge removal grants reflects not only the Government's aim of achieving closer integration of conservation and agricultural policies but also the need for continuing restraint in public expenditure.

The greater part of Fermanagh will continue to enjoy the rates of drainage grant that apply in Less Favoured Areas. Those were enhanced last year through the Northern Ireland agricultural development programme. My noble friend and indeed all your Lordships will be aware of the considerable public expenditure constraints which have had to be imposed. Unpleasant though the decisions were that we had to make about drainage grants, I believe that we have reason to be proud that we have been able to continue with drainage grants. The cuts do bear hard in Fermanagh, but my noble friend will appreciate that the uptake of the grants in Fermanagh was very high compared to other areas in Northern Ireland, and so any cuts will bear hard there. The way that I put it to farmers in County Fermanagh and indeed in Eniskillen recently is that the Government still maintain their partnership in these matters but, unfortunately, we have had to change the balance of that partnership.

My noble friend raised several points on security to which I listened carefully. I shall draw them all to the attention of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. I say no more except fully to endorse what my noble friend said about the courage shown by every single member of the security forces in the face of the appalling risks they have to take. Those compliments could not have been expressed better than by my noble friend.

My noble friend also raised the question of the shortfall between the demand for additional milk quota and the amount for allocation or possibly reallocation so far as secondary quotas are concerned. I am afraid that I can go no further today except to say that all this is the subject of consideration among myself and other agricultural Ministers. I hope that he will accept that we are fighting the corner for Northern Ireland, but we shall have to wait to see final developments.

The noble Lord, Lord Dean, raised several questions about the Assembly. I am grateful to him for bringing to the attention of your Lordships, and giving it a wider audience than it might otherwise have achieved, my somewhat humble Answer today to a Written Question from him. I am afraid that right now I cannot go further and amplify the Answer. If there is anything further that I can say, I shall certainly write to him.

The noble Lord mentioned value for money. I am sure that even he would accept that the GLC and (which is possibly nearer to his heart) the GMC—which does not stand for the General Motor Corporation but the Greater Manchester Council—are entirely different bodies from the Assembly.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I want to put a specific point regarding remuneration for people from the Assembly. In his Answer the Minister said no record of attendance is kept. I made the point—it may be hypothetical; I do not know—that somebody could draw £17,000 a year and never turn up. Why is no register kept?

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I think I recall the noble Lord asking me why. That will be one of the points on which I shall write to him. I am sorry that I cannot go further today on that particular point.

The noble Lord, Lord Fitt, I think the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, and I think also the noble Lord, Lord Blease, raised the case of the 41 nurses at the Royal Victoria Hospital. Perhaps I may make a general point about the provision of health and personal social services in Northern Ireland. I am not able to make a specific comment on that point this afternoon but I may he able to give some indication of the level of spending on all the services of this nature in Northern Ireland.

I stress that the Government are certainly not cutting back on health and social care. Indeed, revenue expenditure on the services over the four-year period 1979–80 to 1983–84 has grown in cash terms from £353 million to £600 million; that is, by 70 per cent. The cost of these services to the economy as a whole has increased by 16 per cent. over this period. The increase in input volume has been 8 per cent.

I take the point that has been raised by the noble Lords but I hope that the figures and the amount of resources that we are devoting to these services provide clear evidence that, despite the country's economy problems, the Government are committed to the maintenance and above all to the development of health and personal social services to meet the needs of the entire population.

The noble Lord, Lord Blease, raised a number of points. The noble Lord was worried about the economic strategy and public expenditure in Northern Ireland. I assure the noble Lord that the Government share his concern and that our overall economic strategy is designed to create the circumstances in which the private sector will be able to develop, and thus create new job opportunities.

The February unemployment statistics which were issued last week show a small decrease in the number of unemployed. I have to say that the reduction is not as large as we might have expected at this time of year, but certainly there are signs that some progress is being made. However, in the longer term, prospects at both national and local level depend upon the maintenance of sound financial policies. Above all, there is the need for continuation of the drive for greater competitiveness, efficiency and enterprise. With this we have to couple the containment of costs, including wage costs, because this is also crucial if we are to translate lower inflation into growth which is lasting and, above all, lasting jobs. That is an objective that all of us really do share.

So far as Northern Ireland is concerned, of course the Province faces a unique combination of social and economic problems. In recognition of this, the Government have responded, we believe in the most positive way, through the public expenditure allocation in Northern Ireland. Public expenditure for 1985–86 will be £30 million higher than had been originally planned. This is at a time when expenditure levels in the United Kingdom as a whole are being held steady. Overall public expenditure in Northern Ireland is somewhere in the range of 30 per cent. to 40 per cent. higher—on any basis that one likes to take, but principally per capita—than in the comparable programmes in the rest of the United Kingdom. I believe that this differential is a good measure of what I have to say has been successive Governments' response to the particular difficulties in the Province.

The noble Lord, Lord Blease, also raised a further point about the report of the Assembly and the Government's response to the Assembly report on the economic strategy. Work on the response is proceeding and we hope that we shall be able to issue it shortly.

The noble Lord, Lord Blease, asked one more point about the IDB. As part of its new strategy, the IDB will take a much more active approach to industrial development than has been the case to date. The IDB intends to work closely with both new and established firms, not only on individual projects but on the overall development of the client company. To help with this particularly important work, the IDB will be strengthening its existing team of client executives by the recruitment of 10 new staff at executive level over the next few years.

I think that the noble Lord and your Lordships will be impressed by the fact that the new recruits will be subjected to a rigorous training programme. The major feature of this will be the requirement to complete an MBA in industrial development and international business at the University of Ulster, a chair in which the IDB itself will soon be sponsoring. I think that your Lordships will agree that the IDB is absolutely correct in this. Further, the IDB believes that this investment in training and development of its executives is essential if any new strategic approach to helping companies is to be at all successful.

The noble Lord, Lord Blease, mentioned in conclusion the effectiveness of this particular form of appropriation debate as a means of scrutinising public spending in the Province. I should hope that your Lordships will agree that it does not represent an ideal mechanism but it gives your Lordships the opportunity to raise any aspect of the policies which we have before us, or indeed the performance of the Northern Ireland departments whose finance is provided for in the draft order. I think in that respect that, as the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, will agree, it gives to your Lordships prime time and indeed a unique opportunity to debate public spending in the Province.

I have sought to cover all the questions. I have indicated that I shall be writing to some of your Lordships. I apologise for having taken up a great deal of your Lordships' time. We have further Northern Ireland business to take. I beg to move.

Lord Blease

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, may I ask him this? He has indeed dealt in great detail with and elucidated many points. He has mentioned that he will reply to matters raised by some individual Lords. Because of the way the debate proceeded, some of us have left aside points we should have liked to raise because they have been raised by other noble Lords. We did not want duplication. Therefore, would it be possible for the noble Lord to give us an omnibus reply? Alternatively, if a reply has gone to one noble Lord, will it be possible for those of us who have taken part in the debate to see copies of that reply?

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I shall certainly take that on board and see if I am able to give what the noble Lord calls an omnibus reply. In any case, I think there are new arrangements which prevail in your Lordships' House. I shall see what I can do. With that, I beg to move.

On Question, Motion agreed to.