BBC External Services: Funding (Hansard, 5 March 1985)

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces (Lord Trefgarne)
My Lords, we are actively considering the recommendation in the review of the BBC External Services that the grant-in-aid to the External Services should be determined at the same time and for the same period as the BBC licence fee. A decision on this recommendation will depend on acceptable arrangements for its implementation being worked out between the Treasury, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the BBC.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. Does he agree that the External Services would have much greater scope for planning and therefore for strengthening this important arm of British broadcasting if they were able to budget on a basis of three years rather than the present one year, with the constant haggling at the end of each year over the amount that they are able to pay out over the following year?

§ Lord Trefgarne
Yes, my Lords, that would certainly be one of the advantages which would flow if this recommendation were to be agreed to, but there would be some arguments in the other direction as well.

Lord Winstanley
My Lords, does the noble Lord understand that noble Lords on these Benches are not so much concerned about the method of funding of the BBC External Services as about the extent of that funding? Does the noble Lord recollect that the noble Baroness, Lady Young, gave us full information on that subject on a recent occasion and that she herself appeared satisfied with that information? But as we are informed that the BBC External Services are not themselves satisfied, I wonder whether the noble Lord has anything to add now to that reply.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I fear that I have nothing to add, save the observation that bodies in receipt of Government finance almost always seem to think that they ought to have more.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, is it not the case that commercial interests as represented by the CBI and the Institute of Directors are deeply concerned about these cuts because of their effect upon the promotion of the sale of British goods overseas? Will the noble Lord confirm that our competitors—for example, France and the United States of America—have increased their overseas broadcasting substantially? For example, France has increased its external broadcasting budget by £3 million, and America by £1.1 billion. In these circumstances would it not be correct to say, as the CBI and others have done, that these cuts are the grossest folly?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, there have been no cuts. As my noble friend indicated to the House on 23rd January and again on 7th February, funds for External Services have been increased in each of the last five years.

Viscount Buckmaster
My Lords, will the noble Lord the Minister assure the House that the BBC Arabic service, which is undoubtedly one of the most effective of all the External Services and is widely listened to and widely respected, will be spared further financial erosion?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot give assurances of the kind that the noble Viscount seeks, because the number of hours and the nature of the broadcasting that we undertake in individual languages depend upon the circumstances at the time.

Lord Morris
My Lords, would my noble friend care to comment on one of the major conclusions of the Perry Committee; namely, that the relationship between the External Services, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and the board of governors not only needs to be clarified, but is in urgent need of redefinition?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, all of the 70-odd recommendations of the Perry review will be carefully considered before we reach our conclusions.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, have the Government considered the relationship between their proposal to give the vote to British citizens living abroad and the importance of maintaining these services? If British people living abroad are to vote in British elections, is it not extremely important that they should be kept well-informed? Does it not follow from their proposal that the Government ought to be increasing the External Services, not decreasing them?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I think the noble Lord refers to the World Service, which of course broadcasts in English. There is no question of any changes to that.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, in the light of the controversy can the noble Lord say what advice he is receiving from our high commissions and embassies abroad? Are they satisfied that the service is being kept up to the standard we require?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the standard of audibility varies from place to place around the world. 1203 That is why we have attached such importance to the audibility programme within the funds we can make available to the BBC External Services to try to improve it in certain areas.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, will the noble Lord please answer my question? Are the embassies and high commissions not constantly making representations on this matter?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, we have 100 or more embassies and other missions around the world. I am not sure that I have in front of me information on the views of all of them. It is certainly the case that embassies report from time to time that audibility in particular is not as good as it might be in certain parts of the world, and that is why we are seeking to improve it.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, when the noble Lord and his right honourable friend are taking advice on their decisions over this report will they take into account the fact that we are in an era in which overseas broadcasting is expanding all over the world, led by the Voice of America? The noble Lord says in answer to my noble friend Lord Cledwyn that there have been no cuts, but is he not aware that within the External Services, and particularly in the World Service, internal economies are demanded as a result of the cut down of the budget of the Foreign Office?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I do not think that I can do more than recite the sums of money that have been made available to the BBC under various heads over the years. For example, the figure for 1983–84 was £77.6 million; the figure for 1984–85 was £81.1 million; and the figure that I have in front of me for 1985–86 is £90.8 million. Those figures show a steady increase in the funds that we have made available.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, are they in cash or real terms?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, those were cash figures.