HL Deb 28 June 1985 vol 465 cc903-4

11.12 a.m.

Lord Graham of Edmonton

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied with the procedures for consultation with staff in cases where the role of a remand centre is changed to that of a category C prison, as is presently envisaged at Thorp Arch remand centre.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Glenarthur)

Yes, my Lords.

Lord Graham of Edmonton

My Lords, I shall try to be grateful to the Minister for that reply. May I draw the attention of the Minister to the excellent Question that was asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, on Wednesday, which was responded to so very well by his ministerial colleague, Baroness Cox, and which is a good backcloth to this problem? Will the Minister acknowledge that the experience and expertise of prison officers can play a crucial part in effecting a smooth transition in matters of this kind, and that there is dissatisfaction among prison officers that, very often, their opinions or views on matters of this kind are sought far too late and then ignored? For instance, why is the purpose-built remand centre at Thorp Arch being used as a means of relieving the dreadful problems at Leeds, instead of proceeding with the planned fourth wing at Thorp Arch?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, I certainly agree that the experience and expertise of prison officers is useful in any transitional phase, but my right honourable friend's decision on Thorp Arch was a complex one. It involved a number of establishments and various interests, both parliamentary and local, in addition to those of the staff. The noble Lord will be aware that there are many factors to be taken into account with the rising prison population.

Lord Elwyn-Jones

My Lords, can the Minister say where they are to put the remand prisoners, bearing in mind that the overcrowding in places where remand prisoners are kept is now notorious?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, the proposals involve three prisons, Thorp Arch, Hull and Leeds. It is a rather complex matter, but I can certainly let the noble and learned Lord know the actual movement of people in the case of all of them.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, the noble Lord may have said "Yes" in answer to the original Question regarding consultation. However, is he aware that, when I represented Leeds in another place, Leeds prison was in my constituency, and I have received correspondence and phone messages from people who represent the staff in Leeds prison and who are very disgruntled and disheartened by the lack of consultation in this exercise which the Home Secretary announced?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, there are disadvantages, in some cases, in going through a period of consultation with the staff in complex areas. I can give the noble Lord examples of other prisons, such as Wetherby, where we had to change plans at the last minute, and this causes a great deal of disruption.

Lord Graham of Edmonton

My Lords, is the Minister aware that I am told that, when his right honourable colleague the Home Secretary in another place made an announcement of changes which affect Thorpe Arch, that statement was made without prior warning or consultation with members of the Prison Officers Association at either national or local level? While I acknowledge what he said in his Answer, will the Minister take on board that, though he may be satisfied that the consultation procedures are adequate, there are others who are dismayed at the manner in which they are being carried out?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, management in this kind of case is essentially a matter for the Prison Department. But the staff and their trade unions were informed immediately a decision had been made and there have been subsequent meetings at prison service headquarters, at which trade union representatives have made their views known. Of course, the noble Lord will be aware that the National Executive Committee of the POA has also put forward its own proposals, which are under consideration.

Lord Graham of Edmonton

My Lords, I would simply say that the Minister has outlined not consultation, but information.