HL Deb 25 June 1985 vol 465 cc641-4

2.45 p.m.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Quesions was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether having regard to reports that alcoholism, drug abuse, and mental illness are rife among United States servicemen with access to nuclear weapons, any examination has been made of the incidence of such hazards among United States personnel manning nuclear weapons in the United Kingdom

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces (Lord Trefgarne)

My Lords, our information does not support the allegations to which the noble Lord refers.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that a Congressional report reports it and that that is more important than the opinion of the noble Lord, if I may say so? Is he also aware that the Congressional report was published by the United States of America, who are rather more open in these matters than we are? Will the noble Lord ask the Americans to publish the next report on this subject, as they have previous reports, and in future t break down the figures geographically so that the people of this country can assess the additional risk here?

Lord Trefgarne

No, my Lords, I shall do no such thing. The fact of the matter is that the incidence of abuse to which the noble Lord refers has significantly declined in recent years and there is, of course, no question of anyone in these circumstances having any access to nuclear weapons or any other weapons.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that common observation suggests that there is more alcoholism, drug addiction and mental illness in the ranks of the CND than there is in the armed forces of our loyal American allies?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, that is an interesting observation which I cannot verify or otherwise deal with.

Lord Renton

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that Mr. Gorbachev has expressed his deep concern about alcoholism among the Russian people and that there are reports which indicate that this extends, alas, also to members of the Russian forces?

Lord Trefgarne

So I have heard, my Lords.

Lord Grimond

My Lords, will the Minister assure us that, even if the allegations were true, the chances of setting off nuclear weapons by mistake, so to speak, are extremely remote?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the noble Lord is entirely correct in that assumption. The safeguards are very stringent indeed.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, if there is a possibility and that possibility is remote, can the noble Lord tell the House when the remote possibility—which he agrees exists—of a nuclear weapon being fired could arise?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the noble Lord is, of course, asking for information which he is not authorised to receive.

Lord Balfour of Inchyre

My Lords, is it not an abuse of the House that a Question should appear on the Order Paper based entirely on unsupported and substantially unjustified accusations? Is it not an insult to our allies upon whom we rely greatly that this kind of Question should appear?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, that is a very proper point of view, if I may say so, but I imagine that the questions of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Putney, are well known to our brave allies.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, whatever may be one's views about the merits or otherwise of the CND, is it not also an abuse of the House to make the kind of charge that the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, made against a movement which includes members of all political parties and which is viewed with respect for the courage of the views of those people who are represented?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, your Lordships probably will not wish me to extend Question Time by responding to that supplementary question.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, if allegations of the grossest character are made by someone associated with an outside organisation against the gallant forces of our American allies, they must be prepared to take it as well as to give it?

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the allegations are based on a United States Congressional report? Does he not agree that the indignation expressed by his noble friends is unworthy of them and that they would be better engaged in concerning themselves with the reality of this issue rather than pretending to a false indignation on facts which they do not care to know about?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, if the noble Lord will forgive me for saying so, he is quite good at quoting things out of context. The fact of the matter is, as I said earlier, that abuse of this kind has sharply declined in recent years, and I am sure that the noble Lord will be very glad to hear that.

A noble Lord

Next Question!

Lord Leatherland

My Lords, since this question deals with alcohol, will the Minister bear in mind that those of us who stood up to our waists in water on the Somme in 1915 were very thankful indeed when the rum ration came round at 6 a.m.?

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords—

Noble Lords

No!

The Lord President of the Council (Viscount Whitelaw)

My Lords, judging from the noises I hear I think it may be that the House will feel that enough has been given and taken on this particular Question to enable us to pass on to the next one.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords—

Noble Lords

Order, order!

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, will the Leader of the House be good enough to bear in mind that it would become him to call his noble friends to order?

Viscount Whitelaw

My Lords, I will of course bear everything in mind; it is my duty to do so. But the noises that I heard coming from around the House, and not all from one side, led me to the conclusion that on the whole the House would wish to pass to the next Question.