Appropriation (No. 2) (Northern Ireland) Order 1985

HL Deb 14 June 1985 vol 464 cc1487-518

11.42 a.m.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Lyell) rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 8th May be approved.

The noble Lord said: I beg to move this order after an entertaining start to your Lordships' day. The order, which your Lordships will see is available in the Printed Paper Office, is being made under paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the Northern Ireland Act 1974. The order provides the balance of funds necessary in this financial year for the services provided by Northern Ireland departments and certain public bodies. Those of your Lordships who attended the debate on the draft Appropriation (Northern Ireland) Order 1985 on 11th March this year will recall approving an amount of £ 1,323 million as a "sum on account" for 1985–86. Taken with the balance of £ 1,733 million that we now seek, this brings the total estimated provision for this year to £3,056 million. This total estimate for 1985–86 of £3,056 million is the figure covered by the Estimates Volume which your Lordships will be able to obtain from the Printed Paper Office.

The draft order before your Lordships makes one additional and slightly unusual provision. It appropriates a further £4 million to make good excesses of expenditure in the 1983–84 financial year. The details are set out in the Statement of Excesses. These two "excess votes", as they are termed, have been examined by the Public Accounts Committee, which has raised no objection to them being voted. The £4 million sought is made up of an underestimation of non-contributory benefits and the costs of storing and maintaining emergency fire fighting appliances. The latter item contributed only £7,000 to the total.

This is the fourth draft appropriation order I have had the pleasure and privilege of presenting to your Lordships. I have found the contributions of all noble Lords to the previous debates both stimulatiing and very enjoyable. In my opening remarks in this debate I shall seek to give your Lordships a broad picture of spending plans for the year. In doing so I hope that my contribution to the debate will be somewhat less technical than in the past and, perhaps, therefore, a little more enlightening.

However, before speaking about the estimates, as is normal on these occasions, your Lordships will perhaps permit me to say a few words about the general economic situation in Northern Ireland and in the United Kingdom as a whole. In the United Kingdom this is the fifth year of continuous economic growth, and recent economic mdicators show that Northern Ireland continues to share in this revival. Industrial production output in 1984 increased by 3 per cent. over the 1983 level and manufacturing production also rose by 3 per cent. in 1984 following a similar rise in 1983. An encouraging aspect of the recovery in manufacturing has been its breadth, with most sectors showing some improvement.

But unemployment remains the major economic problem in the Province. As the population of working age continues to rise, the trend in unemployment remains upward. The Government's response has been, and continues to be, the pursuit of a national strategy to promote the right climate for sound and lasting economic growth, coupled with an effective regional policy directed at the areas of greatest need. The private sector also has a major role to play in identifying and developing new markets and in improving competitiveness by containing costs, including labour costs. Only in this way can we hope to generate lasting employment opportunities and achieve a substantial and lasting reduction in unemployment.

Turning now to the estimates, I start with the interest dearest to my heart, the agricultural industry. This is, of course, of major importance to the Province, employing some 53,700 people. The Government, in 1985–86, intend providing some £54 million for the support of that industry. This is, of course, additional to the substantial support provided through operation of the various national schemes, provision for which is carried by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. This expenditure aims to help create in Northern Ireland the conditions for efficient production, processing and marketing. Special aid has been made available enabling continuation of the beef development programme, the milk consumer subsidy, as well as aid to the intensive sector. Expenditure on land drainage is expected to be some £12 million, and £7 million will be required for forestry and fishery operations.

Before I leave the subject of agriculture, your Lordships may expect me to say something about the vexed question of milk quotas. I am, of all people, very aware of the serious concern which is still felt by many dairy farmers in Northern Ireland. But I have to say that for the moment all I can tell your Lordships is that the Government are still considering this grave problem.

I now move on to the subject of industrial development. Your Lordships will be aware that the Lear Fan company has ceased trading because of further setbacks to the aircraft's certification programme and also because of the recent steep decline in the market for executive turbo-prop aircraft. On 28th May this year a receiver was appointed to secure the company's assets in Northern Ireland and to represent the Government's interest in the assets and technology in the United States. The Government injected some £56 million over five years, along with a private sector investment of 100 million dollars. Your Lordships will, I am sure, share our disappointment at the failure of this high technology project, which might have established welcome new jobs in the Province. Of course, one must sympathise with those members of the workforce who have lost their jobs. Indeed, I think that your Lordships will allow me to record that the Northern Ireland workforce cannot be blamed for this failure; on the contrary, their loyalty and effort is entirely to be praised.

Government support for trade, industry and employment in 1985–86 will cost £291 million. This covers such areas as the work of the Industry Development Board and expenditure by the Department of Economic Development on financial assistance to the aircraft and shipbuilding industry, the funding of the Local Enterprise Development Unit and, of course, the various training programmes, such as the Youth Training Programme.

The YTP aims to cater for the vocational preparation needs of 16- and 17-year-olds, whether they are in education, in employment or seeking work. It offers a comprehensive and a structured two-year programme comprising a guaranteed foundation year for 16-year-olds and for 17-year-olds, either training on projects of benefit to the community or training within employment. I would wish to stress to your Lordships that over the last year the business community in the Province has actively participated in the second year of the training programme by engaging over 2,500 17-year-olds with the help of the local YTP work schemes.

The Government's financial assistance to the gas industry and, indeed, the tariff subsidy to the Northern Ireland Electricity Service account for expenditure of around £120 million. Of that amount £95.6 million is earmarked for the electricity tariff subsidy. Those of your Lordships who are familiar with the Province will be aware that the main source of electricity generation in Northern Ireland is the Kilroot power station, which is currently oil-fired. Plans to convert the station to coal burning have recently been announced and it is hoped to start the project in 1986. The station should be functioning again in 1989 and it is anticipated that the reduction to NIES fuel costs will be in the region of £25 million to £30 million per year.

Just over £12 million will be provided to offset the operating losses incurred during the 1984–85 financial year by 11 of the 13 gas undertakings in the Province, and a further £12 million is for the orderly rundown and closure of those undertakings which decide that they cannot operate without a subsidy. I should like to assure your Lordships that the Government examined very carefully the rescue plan which was put forward by the Gas Industry Joint Working Group. However, in our view the problems associated with the purchase price of the gas and, indeed, the size of the market—which led to the cancellation of the original Kinsale project—had not been overcome and therefore the rescue plan did not provide the basis for a viable gas industry.

Any visitor to Northern Ireland simply cannot be other than impressed by the motorway and the main trunk roads in the Province. Some £98 million has been allocated to the roads programme, with the emphasis on maintaining the quality of this important part of the infrastructure. A further £26 million is allocated to transport.

I should like to move on to housing. In recent years housing has been the top social priority in the Government's public expenditure plans and I can assure your Lordships that this year is no exception. In 1985–86 the gross housing programme will amount to some £545 million. Within the Housing Executive's capital and revenue budgets, some £130 million has been provided for the improvement and maintenance of the housing stock. This allocation underpins the Housing Executive's switch in emphasis which was made in 1983, to concentrate on maintaining the condition of existing stock rather than on new building, particularly in view of the upsurge in private sector house building. I stress to your Lordships that a recent review of housing strategy confirmed the validity of this policy.

I turn to education, libraries and arts. We find that a total provision of just over £614 million is required, of which some 37 per cent. relates to the payment of teachers' salaries. Within that provision, funds will be made available to start the development of the Magee Campus of the University of Ulster. This development, which is to be completed in 1989–90, will provide an additional 750 places, bringing the total capacity of the campus to 1,000.

In secondary education, a major review of the curriculum, which was started last year, will continue. The object is to make the curriculum more relevant to the needs of today's young people. It is hoped that all secondary intermediate and grammar schools will be covered by the review in the next few years.

Expenditure by the Department of Health and Social Services can be broadly split into two areas. First, there is the health and personal social services programme, which includes the funding of the Health Board's expenditure, and the family practitioner services. Expenditure in this area will amount to nearly £642 million and of that amount £521 million will be allocated to the Health and Social Services Boards. A major development this year will be the opening of the new Tower Block at the Belfast City Hospital.

Social security is the other major area of expenditure, with provision in the estimates of just under £755 million. Of that amount, we estimate that £656 million will be required to fund noncontributory and family benefits. Expenditure on contributory benefits from the national insurance fund will increase total social security expenditure to some £1,200 million in the current year. The Government's policy is to maintain parity between Northern Ireland and Great Britain in the provision of social security benefits. The underlying objectives for Northern Ireland are therefore the same as those for Great Britain—to provide income support for pensioners and for people who are not earning because they are, for example, unemployed or incapable of work because of sickness.

As I indicated at the start of my remarks, I have tried to cover the broad field over which some £3,056 million will be allocated. Inevitably, in doing that, I have not referred to many significant areas of expenditure and I expect your Lordships to pick me up on all types of details in the estimates. I shall look forward to listening with great interest to the contributions of all of your Lordships who wish to speak and I hope to deal in greater detail in my concluding remarks with any particular questions which may be raised in the course of the debate. As is traditional on these occasions, I shall reply in detail to the points which so many of your Lordships have been kind enough to warn me that you will be raising and of which you have given me prior notice. I only hope that my answers will live up to the standard of the questions. With those comments, I commend the draft order to your Lordships' House.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 8th May be approved.—(Lord Lyell.)

11.58 a.m.

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, we should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, for having explained the significance of the draft order which is before the House and for the broad picture which he has given of the Government's proposed expenditure during 1985–86. Notwithstanding the encouraging indications of economic growth to which the Minister has referred, notwithstanding the fact that new jobs have been created, and notwithstanding that manufacturing output has increased during the last year, as the Minister himself acknowledges, unemployment in Northern Ireland nevertheless remains high. It amounts to 20.9 per cent. of the total population, as compared with 15.2 per cent. in Scotland, 16.8 per cent. in Wales and 18.6 per cent. in the worst affected of the English regions. We fear that it has not as yet reached a plateau.

The Minister also referred at the end of his speech to an item in the 1985–86 estimates; namely, the provision for supplementary allowance to be paid to those below retirement age not in full-time work. That will increase spending fairly significantly. I submit that the higher social security expenditure which is budgeted for is one of the most significant figures to emerge from the 1985–86 estimates. It tells us quite a lot. It tells us that the Government, for their part, do not see any real prospect over the short term of getting unemployment down, or down significantly. That is also the judgment of the Northern Ireland Economic Council.

Indeed, there may be no such prospect for the Province for many years to come. It has not gone unnoticed that a senior official of the Administration in Northern Ireland told the Assembly that he did not see any real prospect over the next five or 10 years of getting unemployment significantly below the present level. The question one must put to the Government is this: do they believe the tide will turn before the end of the century?

We are well aware that the Province can no longer hope that agriculture, shipbuilding or textiles will recover their former role. Nevertheless, agriculture still remains one of Northern Ireland's most important industries. The noble Lord has a great deal of expertise in agriculture. It is close to his heart, and he is Ulster's Minister of Agriculture. But my question to him on his specialist subject must be: are there any reasonable grounds for the widespread belief in the Province that agriculture in Ulster is not being fairly treated by the EC? If there are such grounds for that judgment, then what action do the Government propose to take to correct the treatment?

The traditional industries are confronted by many difficulties and uncertainties, international economic events, technological changes, and occasional regulations from Brussels have had adverse effects on the Province's traditional industries. We are advised that in order to solve its problems the Province has to look more and more to its indigenous industries, or those sectors of indigenous industry which hold promising prospects for the future.

I was therefore encouraged to read in a recent issue of the Sunday Times that within traditional industry the famous firms of Shorts and Harland and Wolff had shown how they can diversify using technology familiar to their work. The companies I have just named are among the successes in Northern Ireland, and yet is there a possibility, or even a probability, that Shorts will be taken out of public hands?

In its third report, Economic Strategy: Food, Drink and Tobacco, the Northern Ireland Economic Council gave examples in some detail of the type of indigenous industry which it considers one should concentrate on. I was particularly impressed with paragraph 4.2 of the report, which identifies a number of guiding principles which can be used in identifying the sectors in which the Province might be able to achieve a comparative advantage, and then it goes on to identify a number of detailed target sectors.

What advice do the Government give to industrialists who are working in these target sectors? Do they propose to give them further encouragement? If so, what form will that encouragement take? Given the need for more research in the promising target sectors, it is worrying that the budget allocation for Class II, Vote 1, Section D shows a decline in support for industrial research bodies from £97 million to £89 million, and a decline in support of advisory and information services and education and research agencies from £80 million to £74 million. Here we have the emphasis on the need for research, and industrial research, and at the same time we have a reduction in the allocation for these services. How do the Government explain this apparent paradox?

The failure to give greater support to industrial research is paralleled by the failure to invest adequately in the acquisition of skills. There is a substantial decrease in the allocation proposed for the apprentice training scheme, from £5 million to under £1 million. The Economic Council has expressed its concern at the low level in skill training in Northern Ireland. It warns—and I shall quote the warning, there is a real danger of skill shortages in future years if the situation is not reversed". In its people, its workers, Northern Ireland has a capital asset of supreme value. The strength is there. The Northern Ireland worker has often been praised for his adaptability and his hard work, but his labour skills must be constantly upgraded for the technologies of the future.

Let me congratulate the Government on one issue. I am glad that there has been a considerable increase in the allocation for training schemes and rehabilitation of disabled persons, for in a period of recession the handicapped person is doubly handicapped.

I turn to the allocation for the administration of the executive of the IDB. I see that the expenditure on employment of overseas staff is reduced from £570 million to £356 million, and the number of staff employed in the headquarters will decrease from 327 to 285. But are we correct in detecting in these figures a deliberate movement away from the emphasis on inward investment towards indigenous development? If that is so is it because the IDB has found it difficult to attract external investment, or because of a conscious decision to concentrate more resources on job promotion within indigenous industry? Or again, is it because the IDB's operating arrangements have been remodelled in the light of experience gained with the De Lorean company?

While there is naturally concern at the loss of public funds by the De Lorean and Lear Fan companies, and there is concern that there may have been past mistakes by the IDB, nevertheless the experience with those two companies should not be allowed to weaken the IDB. We do not want, in the words of the Public Accounts Committee, the De Lorean experience to lead to the Industrial Development Board becoming an overcautious bureacratic organisation in danger of rejecting opportunities for fear of criticism". I should like to make one quick reference to Lear Fan. A year ago this House was told by the noble Lord the Minister, in reply to a probe from my noble friend Lord Underhill—and I am sorry that he is not in his place today, but he takes a great interest in this order and I have had the benefit of his thinking—that, the management of the company remains entirely confident that it will obtain a certificate of airworthiness for the aircraft This is forecast for February 1985. That was the confident prediction made in June 1984, at a time when, although some defects had been detected and there was a need to correct the defects, there never appeared any doubt that a certificate of airworthiness would be given.

Are the Government satisfied that the company had reasonable grounds for making that confident prediction 12 months ago, or is it to be the subject of an inquiry? Will the Minister tell the House how much public aid there has been to Lear Fan since last June? On the other hand, I was pleased to note that the carbon fibre material has vast potential. Can the Minister tell us to what extent the receivership of the company will be able to tap and realise that potential?

We are glad that in 1984–85 the IDB and LEDU together promoted 8,000 jobs in the Province. That was a record-breaking year for LEDU, and the Secretary of State has spoken eloquently about that achievement. Indeed, there is some evidence that the LEDU investments may have been better value for money than the IDB investment. But we are still entitled to ask the Minister whether LEDU could do even better if it had more staff in the surplus accommodation available at its new headquarters to process and analyse quickly enough the applications for the aid it receives.

We note that the standard capital grants and loans to industrial undertakings are cut from £44 million to £35 million. It may be said by the Minister that this merely reflects the cuts in grants payable in Great Britain. But this is hardly a satisfactory explanation as Northern Ireland has the highest long-term unemployment of any region in the United Kingdom and the duration of the long-term unemployment is longer than in other regions in the United Kingdom. On top of that, the Province is under great social stress. I reflect that central United Kingdom economic policy may not be acceptable for long if it bears disproportionately heavily on Northern Ireland. That is merely a thought.

The proposed agreement to purchase gas supply from the Republic has been abandoned. After the uncertainties of the past few years we are glad at least that a decision has been made, but, while conceding this much, the decision not to proceed with the purchase of natural gas from the Kinsal Field is for many disappointing. It is disappointing because it is likely to lead to the collapse of the gas industry in the Province. Notwithstanding the assurances given by the Minister earlier this morning, we wonder whether the Government took fully into account the full financial implications of this decision. It is also disappointing because it could lead to a loss of confidence in the potential of Ireland-wide, enterprises. In deciding to abandon the agreement, did the Government take fully into consideration the effects on North and South relations? I am wondering: can the Minister tell the House whether the Government are working on any proposals for joint and effective co-operation in other spheres of common interest to the North and the South. Can the Minister tell the House what is happening inside the department, and indeed outside the department, about the recommendations contained in the Williams Report on the possibilities of co-operation in higher education? Does this report offer a basis for some advance?

I welcome the Class VIII section grants in support of improved community relations. The total expenditure under this heading is modest, but still it could be worthwhile, for from little acorns great oak trees grow. I should be grateful if the Minister could make available at some time a list of the associations which are in receipt of these grants.

During the last 10 years there have been significant advances in improving housing conditions in the Province. While the position is still improving, nevertheless housing stock remains poorer than that in the rest of the United Kingdom. Therefore, we are glad to see from the Class V Vote that housing continues to be one of the top priorities in the Government's expenditure plan, and this has been reinforced by the Minister this morning. But we do not necessarily want more of the same. The Northern Ireland Economic Council, in another excellent report, has formulated almost two dozen recommendations for the housing executive's recommendation. These recommendations represent a serious attempt to deal more effectively with the housing programme. How do the Government propose to respond to these recommendations?

It appears that no substantial changes are proposed in the education budget. The Province is proud of what it has achieved in its schools. Will the Minister tell us whether the review of the curriculum to which he has referred this morning will also cover such matters as whether or not the schools are adequately equipped with equipment for science and technology, and whether they will be adequately staffed to prepare the children in two or three years' time to meet the demands of the technological age to which we referred earlier this morning?

I now turn to Class IX Vote 1: the health Vote. There will be no significant additional resources available for the health services in the Province. There will be a slight growth of about 0.5 per cent. but is that adequate? I must place on record the considerable concern expressed about the problems facing the Eastern Health and Social Service Board, which has been asked to cut its budget by £4.6 million in the next financial year. Has the department taken fully into consideration that this board provides highly specialised regional services for the whole of the Province? How will the board be able to achieve the cuts demanded of it without bringing about a deterioriation of health standards?

I note that it is proposed that the growth of 0.5 per cent.—here I quote from the Estimates— should enable provision to be made for the increasing number of old people and for some improvement in standards and advances of medical technology". That is not new. This is almost precisely the form of words used in the Estimates for the previous year, when it was said that it was necessary for growth to keep pace with the increased needs of the very elderly and the advances in medicine". If money were notionally set aside in 1983–84 to keep pace with the demands of the elderly and advances in medicine, what exactly was achieved during the year in those two sectors of the Health Service? Did the allocations help to keep pace with the needs of the elderly and the advances in medicine?

By today we know that there is also a need for a huge improvement in the services for the mentally ill. Since last year's Estimates we have seen the detailed and valuable report from the review committee on mental health published in December last. This drew attention to the unsatisfactory state of mental health in Northern Ireland, but I see no reference in the Estimates to the implications of this report. After identifying the numerous shortcomings in this service the review committee concluded that no real development of the existing services for the mentally ill could be achieved by even a 2½ per cent. increase in the budget. Will the Minister tell us whether the area boards are to be given any additional resources to meet the shortcomings identified by the review committee? Are they to be given additional resources to recruit additional consultants and nurses? Otherwise, at whose expense will they be recruited? Or will they riot be recruited at all?

I shall finish by returning briefly to what we regard as one of the highest of the priorities, the central economic issue. What we want to see is Northern Ireland flourishing for the benefit of its people. There is a need for a vigorous and imaginative development of its indigenous industry by private and public enterprise and to free the Province from a narrow dependence upon the profitability of its traditional industry. If, and it is a big if, this could be achieved we believe that it would go far to break down barriers and the outdated fears which seem to paralyse the thinking of too many people when they are concerned with Northern Ireland.

12.21 p.m.

Lord Hampton

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord the Minister for his introduction and explanations. I propose to stick fairly closely to the order itself, although others may wish—and I was about to say, "see fit"—to range more widely. I offer my apologies that I shall have to leave the Chamber shortly but I have also listened to the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, with interest.

I start with Class II, No. 3, which is a strange hotchpotch referring to the local enterprise development unit, the aircraft industry and the shipbuilding industry, not forgetting energy efficiency and other support services. It is inevitable that one should here refer to the failure of Lear Fan. It was indeed a tragedy. The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, referred to this. I am glad that it has been made clear—and the Minister has repeated this—that neither here nor in the previous failure of the De Lorean enterprise was it in any way the fault of the workforce. With colleagues, I looked round the De Lorean works not so very long before trading ceased and was highly impressed by the calibre, enthusiasm and morale of those involved. That is why the failure there and now at Lear Fan is so particularly sad. I understand that the Lear Fan project failed because it did not receive an airworthiness certificate. To a layman, this seems such a basic necessity for any truly credible design that I should be glad if the Minister would answer this question. Was this due to a serious miscalculation on the part of the designers, and should not the Government have sensed this earlier?

I should now like to turn to Class II, No. 4, which refers to tourism. The figure listed is some £3 million, but in the other place (at col. 386 of the Official Report for 5th June) the Minister said that £5.5 million was to be allocated. This would be a welcome addition. Can the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, confirm that that is what is intended? It seems to me that a big public relations exercise is necessary to demonstrate that there is much beautiful country, a welcoming people and, what will surprise many outsiders, great tranquillity in many areas. There is a vicious band of terrorists, it is true, but I believe that the people of Northern Ireland can arouse much support and derive much encouragement if they can be more open to the outside world.

It is sad that a considerably larger sum of nearly £14.5 million has to be set aside in Class II, No. 6, for consumer protection, regulations on trading practices, and so on. But perhaps this at least shows that the figure allocated for tourism is not overgenerous. Class V refers to the major contribution by the Department of the Environment on housing services. It is still all too possible to find real, old-fashioned slums in the Province and we should not rest until these have been eliminated. I note with interest what the Minister had to say about this.

Lastly, Class XI, No. 1, allocates money for the expenditure of the Northern Ireland Assembly. The noble Lord, Lord Dean of Beswick, asked in the March debate whether a Member of the Assembly could draw his £17,000 a year and never turn up. Of course no sensible electorate would re-elect him, but that is another point. The Minister said that he would give a written reply. I should be grateful if he could now comment on his conclusions on that point.

I have sought to be brief, and I conclude by repeating what is so obvious that it should not be necessary but unfortunately still is necessary: that the people of both traditions have a common interest in finding a better way of ordering their future. We need to repeat and repeat this and to offer all the encouragement that we can. In the meantime, we support this order.

12.26 p.m.

Lord Dunleath

My Lords, I, too, should like to thank the noble Lord for his introduction and for his usual courtesy in inviting us to bring to his attention in advance any points that we might wish to raise. On Class I, the noble Lord was right. I am going to mention the milk quota again, I am afraid. It has been said before, but in a nutshell the situation is that last year when the quotas were introduced for the first time the peculiar dependence of Ireland, both North and South, upon grass-based agriculture (of which milk is the major sector), was recognised. Therefore the Republic of Ireland was given an additional quota over and above what its previous production had been. Northern Ireland was promised favourable treatment as well and was allocated an extra 65,000 tonnes of quota by the EC. In the event, Her Majesty's Government, instead of giving this 65,000 tonnes to Northern Ireland where it was supposed to go, decided to spread it over the rest of the United Kingdom so that Northern Ireland received only a small proportion of that quota which was due to it.

This year, we have been told that once again Northern Ireland has been allocated an additional 65,000 tonnes and the Republic of Ireland has been allocated 58,000 tonnes over and above what they were given last year. What is going to happen to the 65,000 tonnes allocated to Northern Ireland this year? I sincerely hope that in his winding-up speech the noble Lord can tell us; because one thing is for sure, despite what anyone says: we did not receive that 65,000 tonnes last year. Also, in the case of special instances, where cases have been heard by tribunals, farmers who were already committed to expansion when the quota was introduced last year have made their bids to justify investment put into their farms in anticipation of such expansion.

In England and Wales, if my information is correct, 65 per cent, of those tribunal awards will be granted. In Scotland, 57.5 per cent. will be granted but in Northern Ireland the figure is only 49 per cent. Similarly, in hardship cases, if there is no quota transferred from Great Britain to Northern Ireland this year, whereas 100 per cent. of the hardship cases in Great Britain will receive additional quota, those in Northern Ireland will receive none. Indeed, small producers in England and Wales, I understand, will be restored to their 1983 mean average of production, which is a benefit that will not be received by the Northern Ireland small producers.

This is due to the fact that response to the outgoers' scheme has been poor in Northern Ireland; and that is not surprising because farmers in Northern Ireland do not have the alternatives that are open to farmers particularly in the south of England. The opportunities to grow cereals are very limited because of climatic conditions. Similarly, the number of farmers who can realistically go into such alternative crops as oil seed rape are very limited. Indeed, if they go out of farming altogether, opportunities for alternative employment are non-existent in many of the rural parts of the country. I shall not continue with statistics. The noble Lord knows them well.

All I would do is to stress that we are not looking for charity in Northern Ireland. All we are looking for is equality of treatment with the rest of the United Kingdom, taking into account, as the EC has done—but Her Majesty's Government do not seem to have done—the peculiar dependence of Northern Ireland on grass-based agriculture, the fact that agriculture is the largest single employer in the Province, and that it is far better value for money to maintain jobs than to create jobs and is a much more secure investment as well.

The noble Lord is aware of the situation that I have outlined as, indeed, is his right honourable friend the Secretary of State. The impression that we gain is that they have both found themselves frustrated in the representations that they have been making on behalf of Northern Ireland. I am sorry to say it, but the principal reason for this frustration seems to be that the right honourable friend of the noble Lord, the Minister for Agriculture, has turned out to be a poor soldier when it comes to fighting the case for Northern Ireland. I sympathise with the noble Lord opposite. He tells us that the problem of milk quotas is still under consideration. I understand that an answer has to be given one way or another within the next fortnight. If the noble Lord and his right honourable friend the Secretary of State cannot come up with a favourable answer, if I were the noble Lord—and thank heavens, I am not—I would say, "In the time I have been in Northern Ireland, I have done my best, I have tried, but I have been unable to deliver, and therefore with sadness I am going to go. I have done what I can." He would go with honour and we would be very sorry indeed, because he has proved himself to be, if I may say so with respect, most likeable and charming, and a Minister of integrity. But if I were him, I would rather do that than continue to try to explain the inexplicable and excuse the inexcusable. I do not envy him that role in the slightest.

Turning now to Class II (4) I said before that in Northern Ireland we do not want to live on charity. What we want is the opportunity to make maximum use of our existing indigenous resources and what ingenuity there may exist. I therefore regret that Her Majesty's Government have not been able to see fit to grant their support to a Private Member's Bill—which your Lordships were kind enough to pass through all its stages in this House earlier this year—which would have enabled a rerun of the Ards Tourist Trophy Race, using authentic cars of the period between 1928 and 1936. It would have attracted tremendous tourism, but would not have been any burden on public funds, with the exception of police overtime. That is something which is entailed with major sporting events of any kind, including football matches, or, indeed, parades in public places which take place in Northern Ireland at this time of the year. I therefore regret that Her Majesty's Government did not feel able to support this proposal. I particularly regret it because I know that both the noble Lord and his honourable friend the Minister responsible for the Department of the Environment were personally in favour of it, but somewhere in the higher echelons of the department there was a "Sir Humphrey Appleby" who gave it the thumbs-down. I know this makes it difficult for Ministers. I would merely borrow a quotation from the Bench of Bishops, if I may. I am sorry that the right reverend Prelate is not in his place. I am sure the would not mind if I quote the proverb, "nil illigetimi carburundum".

The same has applied with hare coursing. On two separate occasions it was debated by the Northern Ireland Assembly, which resolved unanimously that it should be banned in Northern Ireland in its present form, but once again "Sir Humphrey" came in and gave it the kybosh.

Turning to Class VI (2)—this is a small but important point—whereas demolition, reconstruction or major alteration of old buildings is zero-rated for VAT, restoration of old buildings receives no exemption at all. This means that property owners and property developers have an incentive to demolish interesting old buildings, or change their character completely, rather than to restore in an authentic manner. This seems to be something of an anomaly. I should be very grateful if the noble Lord would look into it.

Finally, on Class XI (1), it is my custom to say a word or two about the Northern Ireland Assembly every now and again, as I am the only Member of your Lordships' House who can report on it at first hand. The Assembly continues to do a good job in its scrutinising rôle. It has made government more accessible to the public through the number of witnesses who have given evidence to its committees and Her Majesty's Government have been good enough to heed many of the recommendations of those committees and conveyed to them through the Assembly's report. In this I am convinced that it is doing a useful job.

But we have to face up to the fact that no progress is at present being made towards devolution. On 1st November 1979 I ventured to suggest in your Lordships' House that the Assembly should be set up in roughly the form that it was set up. I made that suggestion confident that the Social Democratic and Labour Party would be glad to join it and to participate in a form of partnership government. I am sure that had it been the same party now as it was when it was led by the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, with the help of—as he then was—his honourable friend Mr. Patrick Devlin, the SDLP would be in Stormont now and would be participating in a devolved administration there. I am very disappointed that the SDLP is a different party now from the one that was led by the noble Lord. I am very sorry that they have turned their backs on this opportunity to participate and instead have placed their money on the new Northern Ireland Forum report which, as I said at the time in your Lordships' House, had many points to commend it, but was not realistic in its conclusions, as indeed the Prime Minister pointed out in a somewhat forthright manner.

The question therefore is: are Her Majesty's Government prepared to allow the Assembly to continue ticking over without any sign of progress towards devolution? I would suggest that it is time the Government started to govern, rather than just hope that the situation can be contained in Northern Ireland, that violence will continue to decrease, and that there will not be any political trouble of any kind. I would respectfully suggest that it is time for Her Majesty's Government to present a framework within which power can be devolved on a partnership basis. If the SDLP declined to participate now, it would be most regrettable, but they would have only themselves to blame. Otherwise if Her Majesty's Government do not do that, and if they decide that the Assembly has no realistic future, the SDLP will have condemned us to an indefinite spell of direct rule which means rule by "Sir Humphrey Appleby". I suggest it is time therefore that Her Majesty's Government decided what to do next about the Assembly, because in view of the fact that such progress is not being made, your Lordships may well question whether the expenditure of nearly £2 million for the Northern Ireland Assembly is worth it. Personally I should be very sorry to see it terminated, because it is doing a useful job. But, realistically speaking, the question must be asked as to whether the time has now come for Her Majesty's Government to take some resolute action one way or the other.

12.40 p.m.

Lord Blease

My Lords, I join with other noble Lords in thanking the Minister for his introduction to this draft order. May I say that these draft orders are looked upon as annual events, and very important ones, so far as the discussion of the affairs of Northern Ireland is concerned. I am sure that noble Lords who reside in Northern Ireland will join with me in saying that we certainly very much appreciate the thought, energy and interest that is taken by other noble Lords in Northern Ireland affairs on these annual occasions.

I welcome the fact that the noble Lord has said that a less technical approach has been taken to the order, and perhaps a more enlightening manner of presentation might help in the debate. I note that this is the third annual report of the Estimates which has been presented in the new format. The continuing change of style and presentation has helped considerably, and particularly the very helpful subheadings, which give details. Having said that, however, I am still of the opinion that debate across the Floor of this Chamber is not an appropriate way to deal with the detailed matters involved. I think that some other procedure will have to be found for dealing with the matters under consideration. I do not blame the Minister in a way, or indeed all those who are concerned with the procedural arrangements of this House. I think it is outside that the power to change the procedures is to be found; but certainly I believe that a change is necessary in this respect.

I should like simply to deal with the figures as shown in the Estimates, and I would first refer to page 14, Table 5. That gives an estimate of staff numbers for 1985–86 in the nine departments of the Government of Northern Ireland. It indicates a reduction of staff of some 256. I am particularly concerned about the proposed staff reductions in departments which in my opinion are the key departments, providing crucial services to productive employment in the Province. I speak, of course, of agriculture and economic development. In agriculture there is a reduction of 40 staff, and in economic development there is a reduction of 74.

The trend in the run-down of these vital services is shown in Tables 1–9 Appendices I and II, where a reduction of 12 is proposed in the staff employed in the important sector of agriculture dealing with research, food science and training. Mention has been made by the noble Lord on the Front Bench of the fact that the food and agriculture industry is one of the most important indigenous wealth-producing industries in Northern Ireland in terms of employment, and here we have in the important sector of research, food science and training a run-down of staff. Surely there is a very special need for the Government to maintain every effort to keep all sectors of agriculture so as to help to initiate new ideas, new technology, new production processes and new marketing approaches, to meet the rapidly changing modes of consumer food preferences and requirements.

Turning to page II.5 of the Estimates, Votes 1 and 2, on the Industrial Development Board, on 2nd May this year the Northern Ireland Industrial Development Board published its strategy document entitled Encouraging Enterprise. That document gives the Industrial Development Board's programme for the next five years. The key elements of its strategy are to revitalise home industry, to focus more sharply on inward investment effort and to help to develop and sharpen Northern Ireland's skills and expertise. In my opinion, that is in direct contradiction to the action proposed for manpower in agriculture and economic development, which has already been explained in great detail by my noble friend Lord Prys-Davies.

May I ask the noble Lord the Minister to indicate what public statements of support and encouragement have been made by the Northern Ireland Office about the Industrial Development Board's programme? Can he also say what progress has been made by the board in the recruitment of additional experts and specialist staff? How far is the Industrial Development Board on target for the achievment of the 5,750 new job promotions set for 1985–86? May I further ask the noble Lord whether he can indicate where in the Estimates is shown the proposed financial support by the Government for the special aims for the project Industrial Year 1986? What efforts are being made by the Northern Ireland Office and by departments to make a success of this very important event?

Moving now to Class II.3, Section B, mention has been made of the Harland and Wolff shipbuilding works and of the Short aircraft works. Workers in both companies, together with the management, have a great awareness of world competitive conditions and the importance of the capacity to develop effective, positive co-operation towards mutual objectives. Your Lordships will know about the successful winning by Shorts of three competitive contracts during the past six months. Shorts' reputation in the aerospace industry is now well established internationally. These contracts should give their work people a secure base for employment.

I should like to put this point to the noble Lord the Minister, who I am sure is well aware of the general concern about the proposed dispersal factory for Shorts in West Belfast. The delay in having a public statement about this factory is giving rise to much controversy. May I ask the noble Lord if he would discusss this matter with his ministerial colleagues, with a view to making suitable approaches to Shorts' management so that there can be an early clarification of this important matter?

Turning to Class II.5, Sections A and B, which concern youth and industrial training programmes, according to my calculations there are at least 12 differently structured and organised industrial training schemes provided by the Northern Ireland Department of Economic Development. Some of these schemes are claimed to be good, some are accused of the gross exploitation of young workers and others have reported mediocre results. There is much concern about the present random, piecemeal and poorly-designed objectives on which the various schemes are promoted and managed. It seems to me there is much to be desired in the way of radical improvements in profiling, staff development, research and management structures, together with the marketing of youth employment and training schemes.

There is every reason to believe, looking at the position here in Great Britain, that in Northern Ireland Government-sponsored youth training and adult retraining schemes will become a permanent key feature of economic development and manpower policies. May I ask the Minister to draw to the attention of his ministerial colleagues the need for a greater co-ordination of the objectives and efforts between the Northern Ireland Manpower Council and the departments? May I also suggest that the Northern Ireland Manpower Council be given a more authoritative and responsible public role, rather than the low-key advisory role it currently presents.

I now turn to Class VIII-3, Section D: youth, sports and allied services. For many obvious reasons, I welcome the Northern Ireland Office's continued encouragement and support for the recreational and sports needs of young people in Northern Ireland. They have done a very useful and helpful job in encouraging the pursuit of sports and recreation by young people. One of the organisations that plays an important role in youth services is the Youth Committee for Northern Ireland, which acts in an advisory role to the Government.

This committee recently undertook a major review of the youth service provisions in Northern Ireland, in which it had the expert help of the Northern Ireland Council for Educational Research. Arising from the review and the study, the youth committee compiled a 45-page report which made some 30 recommendations concerning the aims, management, structure and training requirements of the youth service to meet the challenge of change in our society. The report was sent to the Northern Ireland Minister, Mr. Nicholas Scott, on 17th May. I realise that Mr. Scott, like other Northern Ireland Ministers, leads a very demanding life, but may I ask the noble Lord, the Minister, whether he will draw to the attention of Mr. Scott that an early and sympathetic reply to the youth committee's report and the recommendations would be encouraging to those who share this responsibility of meeting the needs and the challenge of young people in Northern Ireland?

If the House will bear with me, I should like to refer to the Sports Council, which is mentioned in Class VIII-3. This week, the attention of the world has been drawn to the high levels of achievement of Ulstermen and women in the field of sport. The grit, determination and skill of Barry McGuigan, who won the world featherweight boxing championship has been coupled with world class performances by other Ulster sports people, such as Mary Peters, Pat Jennings, Alex Higgins, Dennis Taylor, Jim Parker in bowls, Jim Dunlop in international motorcycling, and many others. I am sure noble Lords will understand and share our pride and delight in the achievements of our sportsmen at this particular time.

In this connection, I believe that it would be appropriate to pay tribute to the Northern Ireland Sports Council, which over the past 11 years has worked hard and given great leadership to make a very necessary and valuable contribution to the Northern Ireland community. I am glad to say that the Northern Ireland Sports Council has succeeded in gaining the support and the good will of the Minister and many commercial sponsors as well as local authorities and sports organisations. I am confident that there are many more stars within the Northern Ireland Sports Council's orbit, and perhaps we shall hear more of them in the near future. I hope so.

Class VIII-13 deals with purchasing grants in aid of museums. The noble Lord the Minister will know of the review of museums in Northern Ireland which was carried out by the working party of the United Kingdom Museums and Galleries Commission. The working party report, the Morris Report, found that the standards and provisions of museum services in Northern Ireland were markedly lower than those in any other area of the United Kingdom.

The Northern Ireland Assembly, in discussing the Morris Report, stated: The Government should, in the context of the review of public expenditure, bring forward proposals to improve the finances of the museum services and bring these closer to parity with the rest of the United Kingdom. It is a matter of public concern in Northern Ireland that, during the period from 1980 to 1984, when some of the 21 national museums and galleries in England, Scotland and Wales received millions of pounds annually from public funds by way of purchase grants—I have a list of them which I do not wish at this stage to present to the House—the Ulster Museum, during the same period, did not receive one brass farthing for this purpose. Last year a grant of £30,000 was made, and the Estimates we are at present considering propose a sum of £45,000. Over the past five years, through lack of finance in its purchase fund the Ulster Museum has lost the opportunity to acquire hundreds of items of importance to its existing collection and items of great value to the Ulster heritage. I have again a list of the items that have been lost to private purchasers and farther afield. May I ask the Minister to use his good offices to have this impoverished position and image of the Ulster Museum in some way remedied and retrieved?

Turning to Class VIII-3—Community services—one of the bodies in receipt of grants from the Government is Co-operation North. This community organisation recently published an excellent and most useful directory containing detailed lists of major organisations providing services to industry and the community at large in Northern Ireland and in the Republic. I should like to commend this publication to all interested in the promotion of peace, prosperity and progress in both parts of Ireland through understanding and friendship and by the willingness to share good will. I understand that your Lordships' Library will have a copy of this directory some time next week.

As regards Class VIII-16—referring to the Staff Commission for the Education and Library boards and the Staff Council for the Health and Social Services—in this context I was astonished and astounded to read the reports of the Comptroller and Auditor-General for Northern Ireland concerning the propriety of the internal audit provisions and the standards in the boards under these services. The first report is contained in the Statement of Educational and Library Board's accounts published in May 1985, Cmnd. 9487. The second one is contained in the Northern Ireland Trading and Other Accounts, published on 12th June this year, which is House of Commons Paper 409.

The report of the Auditor-General raises questions about the training, appointment, selection, status and management provisions to enable the personnel efficiently to carry out the important internal audit work. There appear to be issues arising of inadequate financial provision. If there are, then this is a matter for these Estimates. In perusing the matter, I am not sure that it is that alone that is at fault. So I have asked the noble Lord whether perhaps he will draw it to the attention of those concerned in order to have this particular situation speedily remedied.

My final point is contained in Class IX, Table 1—the home help service. The Minister will know of the current report of a proposal to privatise the home help service by the direct payment to recipients of home services to employ their own home help. In my view, never was such a ludicrous situation presented to the general public anywhere. I think this is an experiment which has been foisted upon Northern Ireland in advance of something which may take place here in Great Britain. Your Lordships will also be aware of the wide dismay and opposition to this proposal in Northern Ireland. May I ask the noble Lord to request that these proposals be withdrawn and that the consultations be arranged between management and worker representatives to achieve a more efficient administration of these essential home help services under the control of existing management. Again I thank the noble Lord the Minister and those who have taken part in this debate and support the order.

Lord Kilbracken

My Lords, before my noble friend sits down, may I ask if he will bear in mind—I am sure he knows already very well—that he said that Barry McGuigan comes from Ulster. So indeed he does; he comes from the Ulster county of Monaghan which is inside the Republic of Ireland.

Lord Blease

My Lords, I am happy to say that I chose my words very well in that respect.

1 p.m.

Lord Fitt

My Lords, I know that the House will be grateful for the contributions which have been made by my noble friends Lord Blease and Lord Dunleath. They have the distinct advantage of living in Northern Ireland and, as I have found over these past two years since I took up residence in this country, there is no substitute for living in the area that you represent, so that you are able to keep in touch. I try to keep in touch with events as they unfold in Northern Ireland, but I admit to losing touch to a considerable extent by not having a home there. The fact that I do not have a home in Northern Ireland is no fault of mine. My home was destroyed by those who were politically opposed to me and I had to take up residence in this country. But I think it is right that we should pay a good deal of attention to remarks which are made by those representatives in your Lordships' House who still live in Northern Ireland, because, I repeat, that there is no substitute for it.

I rise for only a few minutes to reinforce what has been said by other speakers and, first, in relation to the Northern Ireland Assembly which was mentioned in some detail by my noble friend Lord Dunleath. I remember that in 1981, when the legislation under which the Northern Ireland Assembly was set up was going through another place, I was the only Northern Ireland representative who supported the setting up of the Northern Ireland Assembly. All other representatives in another place were opposed to its setting up, on the grounds that, for one reason or another, it would not work. Indeed, many of them told me that they would not take part in the newly constructed Northern Ireland Assembly.

What we have seen since has been something of a contradiction. All those representatives who were so opposed to the setting up of the Assembly are playing a role, particularly the Democratic Unionist Party—the Speaker of the Assembly is a Member of another place—and the official Unionist Party. Sometimes they do not attend; they withdraw their services for various reasons and then they return again. What we have not had is the distinct voice of the Northern Ireland minority in that Assembly.

It will be said that there are some members of the minority religion who are in the Alliance Party and who speak there. But the main elected representatives of the minority in Northern Ireland are the Social Democratic and Labour Party and Sinn Fein representatives. Let us not try to run away from that fact, to discard it or to brush it under the carpet. Sinn Fein now has 59 representatives in the local authorities in Northern Ireland and five representatives in the Assembly. It has been elected, much against my will, by a significant section of the Northern Ireland electorate.

I think that the Government are still hoping, by one means or another, to entice the SDLP into beginning to attend the Assembly at Stormont. Let me tell the Minister, with all the experience which I have had of political life in Northern Ireland, with 10 years of leadership of the SDLP behind me and with a significant knowledge of the vast majority of the members who now constitute the SDLP, that there will never be an occasion when that party will consider attending the Northern Ireland Assembly. I think that the Minister should rule that from his mind. There are some who would like to go, with whom I am in touch. There are others who are frightened to go. But the main body of the SDLP has been grappled by the throat by Sinn Fein, and Sinn Fein will in no circumstances permit the SDLP to begin to attend that Assembly.

I have been very disappointed and I agree with what has been said about me by my noble friend Lord Dunleath. Had I continued to be a member of the SDLP, and if those other members of the SDLP who resigned from that party for the same reasons that I resigned had remained as members, we should have tried but we would have failed to convince the SDLP that it should begin to represent its people in the Northern Ireland Assembly. It would appear that behind the scenes a type of blackmail has been used by the SDLP. It would appear that it is saying to the British Government: "If you can make concessions to us in another arena, if you reach some agreement with the Government of the Republic and if some concessions are made to our national aspirations_ then we will begin to attend that Assembly." But in those circumstances, if those concessions were made, the SDLP would be attending but nobody else would be attending. Those who are at present attending the Assembly would withdraw. So one can see the awful dilemma in which this present Government are placed.

I agree with my noble friend Lord Dunleath that we have now had the Northern Ireland Assembly for three years and that it has carried out useful functions. But it is not a component factor in any future political structures that are to be created in Northern Ireland. If the Northern Ireland Assembly is abolished—and I believe that it will be abolished—I think that the responsibility for the abolition of that structure will have to be borne by the SDLP and by the Sinn Fein representatives, because they are the people who by their non-attendance have ensured the total failure of that elected Assembly.

If that Assembly ceases to exist, what will replace it?—a further dose of direct rule. I listened this morning to my noble friend Lord Prys-Davies and he appears to be more in tune with the unemployment problem in Northern Ireland than some of the elected representatives in another place. Since the imposition of direct rule in 1972, there has always been objection taken to the fact that Northern Ireland is governed by direct order. Debates in another place are either late at night or early in the morning and they last an hour and a half. I read the report of the debate on the order in another place and the whole debate seemed to be devoted to agriculture. The only three people who took part were the honourable Member for North Down, another Member representing a rural constituency in County Down and the right honourable Enoch Powell. One would think that there were no Belfast representatives in another place, yet Belfast is the real linch-pin of any success or failure that will affect the whole future of Northern Ireland.

We are debating here today the appropriation order, and this second instalment amounts to £3,056 million. That is quite a lot of money to be incurred in the running of Northern Ireland. I am certainly grateful that this Government—whether or not it is a Conservative Government—continue to see the urgency of the unemployment problem in Northern Ireland. I do not believe, even if there were a Labour Government, that the expenditure, given the economy of this country, would be increased by any significant amount. So I agree that the Assembly was created with the best intentions in the world. I think that a Labour Government, had it been in power in those years, would have tried to do the same, because I believe that the intention was to create political structures in Northern Ireland and to see whether they could attract the allegiance and the loyalty of both sections of the community. The intention was to make it possible for them to sit down in their own homeland to try to evolve political structures that would enjoy the allegiance of both the majority and minority communities. Unfortunately, that has not happened, and it may be that the Government will have to embark on a totally different crusade to bring those two communities together.

On the question of Lear Fan, I think it was a tragedy that it failed. It was also a tragedy that De Lorean failed. I noticed when De Lorean failed that it was the child of the Labour Government and of the then Secretary of State Roy Mason. That was a valiant attempt to try to attract an industry into Northern Ireland, particularly into West Belfast, where—

The Earl of Halsbury

My Lords, can I appeal to the noble Lord to look at the clock? He has spoken for 10 minutes on a Friday afternoon, when there are 22 speakers to follow. We hope to get home for tea if possible. Will the noble Lord curtail his remarks?

Lord Fitt

My Lords, the noble Earl's intervention indicates how unsatisfactory it is to have direct rule to govern Northern Ireland. If 10 minutes to hear from someone who has spent his whole political life in Northern Ireland is too much for this House, then I bitterly resent that and the intervention of the noble Earl.

The Earl of Halsbury

Then the noble Lord should put his name down to speak, my Lords.

Lord Fitt

My Lords, it does not matter whether or not my name was down to speak. If my name had been down, the noble Earl might still have sat there silently having the same objection. Northern Ireland has problems which will not go away. If this House sits on a Friday it is entitled to hear the problems of Northern Ireland.

I want to say something to the noble Lord about Lear Fan and De Lorean. They were both noble attempts by the then Labour Government to attract industry to Northern Ireland, but they failed. I was very disappointed when a large section of the Conservative Party began to hurl all kinds of abuse at the then Secretary of State and the Labour Government for trying to achieve the difficult task of attracting viable industry to Northern Ireland.

The same thing has now happened to them. The next Secretary of State for Northern Ireland tried to attract Lear Fan, but unfortunately that project has gone by the board as well. There are too many elements in Northern Ireland, including the SDLP, the party I formerly led, Sinn Fein, and others who have been terribly wise after the event, all sneering at attempts by the Conservative Government to create a new industry with Lear Fan. The Conservative Government are to be congratulated for trying to attract industry to Northern Ireland.

Shorts has also been mentioned by my noble friend Lord Blease. Shorts is not without its enemies and detractors in Northern Ireland. There are many people in Northern Ireland, particularly in the Republican community, who have for a number of years consistently tried to hurl abuse at and belittle Shorts. I know from all the years I spent in Northern Ireland that the same kind of abuse was hurled at the Belfast shipyard on the grounds that it did not employ Catholics. Shorts' enemies were not only in Northern Ireland; it was known that it had enemies also throughout America, led by Father Sean McManus, attempting to prevent Americans from using Shorts' facilities.

I never paid any great attention to that kind of abuse, but I do pay attention to a criticism made recently by Sister Genevieve of St. Louisa's comprehensive school in West Belfast. She says that some of the pupils who graduated from her school with all the required academic qualifications, and who were then interviewed by Shorts' management and promised that they would be offered employment, have found that that employment has not materialised. Sister Genevieve is so concerned about those promises not being fulfilled that she thought it right to go public on this issue and to make statements to the press.

In view of the fact that Shorts is not without its enemies, I urge the Minister to look into the employment situation at Shorts and to ensure that there is no discrimination against the minority religion in Northern Ireland. I would also fully endorse what has been said by my noble friend Lord Blease. If there is to be some diversification of the workload in Shorts then it should be attracted to West Belfast where, again, promises have been made but not fulfilled.

I do not believe that I have taken an undue length of time in making those few remarks. In fact, I can assure the noble Earl who intervened that on future occasions I shall take a hell of a lot longer to speak about the problems of Northern Ireland.

1.14 p.m.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I note the point made, quite rightly, by the noble Earl. I assure him and other noble Lords that I have sat and listened with fascination to the points which have been raised by your Lordships today. I am very grateful for the interest that has been shown in all parts of the House. I must stress that it is only good manners and I should try to reply to noble Lords who have spoken and to respond satisfactorily and succinctly to as many points as I can, including those of which I received prior notification, as is the custom in such matters. I shall attempt to answer them all. If I fail to do so, no doubt your Lordships will pick me up on them and I will then be in touch through the usual channels, by writing to your Lordships.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, made a notable speech. He kindly warned me of many of the points he would be raising. He covered the broad spectrum of life in the Province, as did the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, who I am sure will shortly return to the Chamber. The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, referred to the subject of agriculture. I should stress that there are no grounds for claiming that Northern Ireland agriculture is being treated in any way less fairly than other regions by the European Community. Indeed, Northern Ireland receives certain benefits from the Community because of its particular disadvantages.

Those benefits include the agricultural development programme which is specially tailored to the needs of the Province and above all to the less favoured areas in the Province. Secondly, we have the advantage of the beef development programme. Thirdly, we have the calf premium scheme. All of these are of real benefit to Northern Ireland beef farmers.

The noble Lord also raised the question of unemployment. He is not alone in knowing that unemployment is a matter of major concern to all of us, wherever we may stand in the political spectrum, or indeed wherever we stand in the United Kingdom. I am sure the noble Lord appreciates that our economic policy, as I set out to stress to him at the outset, is designed to achieve a sustained improvement in the national economy over a period of time. We all know that the Government are seeking, first, to achieve a reduction in inflation; secondly, the promotion of enterprise and initiative. We hope that in this way greater opportunities for employment can be created and also that higher living standards can be achieved.

Northern Ireland is of course an integral part of the United Kingdom, and I hope that the Province may expect to share in the benefits of any economic upturn. Indeed, such is the main point of our economic strategy. Certainly the Government recognise the special needs of Northern Ireland and the importance of public spending in alleviating the economic problems of the Province. I am sure your Lordships will appreciate even from the estimates that we have before us that public expenditure per head in Northern Ireland is substantially higher than elsewhere in the United Kingdom, to reflect the special needs of the Province. I stress again that the Province is an integral part of the United Kingdom and that it must share in the Government's overall strategy for maintaining light control on public expenditure. Nevertheless, £30 million more of public expenditure than was originally planned for 1985–86 has been allocated to the Province.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, spoke about present unemployment levels in Northern Ireland; and we accept that they are high, as indeed they are in the United Kingdom, by historical standards. A significant improvement in the situation as far as Northern Ireland is concerned is unlikely to be seen in the short term. But the unemployment level is not a problem particular to Northern Ireland, nor indeed to the United Kingdom. It is a worldwide condition which has prevailed for some time. Our response has been, and continues to be, the pursuit of a national strategy to promote the climate for a sound and lasting economic growth. Only in that way can we hope to generate the employment opportunities which all noble Lords, and everyone in Northern Ireland wants to see.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, also referred to the decrease in support for industrial research and the various advisory services. The decrease in 1985–86, compared with previous years, can be found on page II.6 of the report (it is fascinating that we have to use Roman as well as Arabic numerals) under subheadings D.1 and D.4 in Class II of Vote 1. These result from special one-off provisions which were made in recent years. In 1983–84 the sum of £45,000 was made available to the Lambeg Industrial Research Association and this was in connection with a special flax-growing project. The 1984–85 provision included a one-off amount of capital support for the estabishment of a computer-aid design advisory service and the 1985–86 provision covers the normal running service costs of those two services. Therefore, that is one element raised by the noble Lord and I hope that it indicates to him that we certainly are not running down these services, since the previous year's figures would have an element of what he and I and, indeed, his noble friend Lord Bruce of Donington, would accept as being a capital element, and that the reduction is, in fact, a continuation of services.

I suggest that the noble Lord looks at page II.9, IDB Class II, Vote 2, subhead B.3. Under that heading he will find that on the advisory service to industry the provision has increased from £400,000 in 1984–85 to £560,000 in 1985–86; that is, this year.

The noble Lord also warned us—and we are all aware of it—of the possible shortage of skills in the future. He quoted beautifully from paragraph 24 of the NIEC report of April 1985. The Government certainly accept that there is some substance to that warning, but we stress that the primary responsibility for satisfying the skill demands of industry rests in the first place with industry itself. The numbers who are trained in the relevant and particular skills which are needed for various sectors of industry are dictated by the industrial training boards. We believe that the boards are best placed to appreciate the particular needs of their own industry. The small numbers which are today being trained in the engineering skills is a very clear reflection of the significant contraction in demand for apprentices in recent years for that particular discipline. However, I give the assurance that we shall continue to monitor the demand for various skills and we are ready to respond positively, and I hope quickly, by encouraging and assisting industry to satisfy the needs which must be met, when these needs can be identified.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, referred to the LEDU, as part of his ongoing interest in the industry, and its staffing complement. It is subject to continuous review. Since 1984 the numbers employed by the LEDUs have significantly increased. From an original 70 there is now a complement of 94. We are currently discussing with the Department of Economic Development an increase in the staff complement to around 103. Additional human resources have enabled the agency to handle an increased inquiry rate and that, in turn, has resulted in job promotions trebling from 1,613 in 1981–82 to over 4,000 in 1984–85.

The noble Lord questioned the staffing levels of the IDB. These, too, are kept under constant review. We expect that the staffing levels at the IDB will reduce from 437 at 1st April this year to 285 at 31st March next year. We shall be seeking to achieve this mainly by a planned reduction in the number of technical staff engaged in the IDB's property activities, due to rationalisation and, indeed, privatisation. However, I assure your Lordships, and especially the noble Lord, that the effectiveness of the IDB will not be impaired and that the figures certainly do not indicate any change of emphasis in the board's approach to its job creation activities.

The noble Lord also referred to the various NIEC reports. He questioned food, drink and tobacco. The IDB and other bodies involved with the development of food, drink and tobacco industries generally follow the recommendations of the council on these particular target sectors. There may be differences of emphasis in some cases, but the bodies concerned are at present examining the recommendations in detail to identify any possible difficulties.

The noble Lord questioned the housing review and its recommendations. Current housing strategy takes realistic account of the housing problems in Northern Ireland and the steps necessary to alleviate these problems, I accept especially the validity of the council's views to keep strategy under regular review. There is a need to review and, above all, to improve the underlying data base and to target grant aid more effectively on properties and, of course, persons most in need. We accept the need for that housing strategy to be dynamic, and to this end the strategy is subject to annual review in order to reflect changing needs and circumstances. We thank the NIEC for its report and acknowledge the usefulness of having an independent assessment of our housing strategy in Northern Ireland.

The noble Lord referred to the Williams Report and possible co-operation in higher education over the whole of Ireland. Certainly there is a long tradition of cross-border co-operation in higher education, especially in my own profession, involving the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Ireland, and I am pleased to note that. This involves the provision of places for students and projects which require collaboration over the whole of Ireland. It involves members of staff in various institutions. The Williams Report has targeted suggested areas in which increased cooperation would be beneficial and in a Written Answer on 4th April this year my right honourable friend welcomed the report and indicated that its recommendations were being considered by the Department of Education and other interested parties.

The noble Lord also asked about the Auditor-General. The Department of Education and the area boards recognise the weaknesses in their own internal audit relating to the education and library boards. This is highlighted by the Comptroller and Auditor-General's examination in the early months of 1984. I assure the noble Lord that since then the Department of Education has carried out its own review and a number of improvements have already been made. These include clearer definitions of the role and responsibilities, the introduction of revised reporting arrangements, the improvement of working methods and the provision of additional training. I am sure your Lordships will agree on the importance of high standards of internal audit being maintained at all times, to ensure not just propriety and proper expenditure, but also efficiency and good, competent management.

The noble Lord asked about the mental health review. This proposal, involving the Draft Mental Health (Northern Ireland) Order, was published on 4th April. It will amend and consolidate existing mental health legislation, which is contained mainly in the Northern Ireland Mental Health Act 1961.

The noble Lord will be aware that the proposals in the draft report take account of the recommendations of the Northern Ireland review committee on mental health legislation; I refer to the MacDermott report. We are grateful for the many comments which we received during the consultation period. Consideration was also given to revised mental health legislation for Great Britain which Parliament has enacted since that report was published. I hope that copies of the proposals have been circulated widely to all the interested bodies and other organisations concerned in the Province for comment. The resource requirements which may flow from the proposals will be considered in the usual way alongside the various other pressures which are accommodated within the Northern Ireland public expenditure block.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, asked about the Eastern Health and Social Services Board. The answer is rather complicated. In view of the quite understandable feelings of your Lordships, I wonder whether I could write to him on that point. That noble Lord also asked about community relations in the Province. I hope that he welcomes the increase in grants for the improvement of community relations. I shall place in the Library (and I am sure that the noble Lord will certainly see that he has a copy) a list of the bodies which have received the grants.

The noble Lord and other noble Lords asked about Kinsale gas. Let me deal with the Kinsale project and the whole of the gas industry as one reply. The Kinsale project appeared to offer an opportunity for major economic co-operation between Northern Ireland and the Republic. That was welcomed by the Government. I assure the noble Lord that the most strenuous efforts were made over a long period to arrive at a fruitful and mutually beneficial outcome. But long-term economic viability was a fundamental requirement for both the Government of the United Kingdom and the Government of the Republic. Once it became clear that the project offered no prospect of viability for Northern Ireland, the Government had no option but to withdraw. I stress that the Government attach considerable importance to co-operation with the Republic on matters of mutual interest. But I am sure your Lordships will agree that the best relationship between our Government and the Government of the Republic would not be fostered by being locked into an unsatisfactory long-term contract for an energy project which we believe would turn out to be uneconomic.

With regard to the gas industry generally in Northern Ireland, since 1974 the Government have funded operating losses to the tune of £66 million. Over that 11 years the number of consumers has declined from 175,000 to 98,000. In 1974 sales were 34 million therms; they are now of the order of 17 million therms annually. That represents less than 2 per cent. of the energy consumption in Northern Ireland. We looked again at alternative gas supply options, including supply from Great Britain. We also looked at the gasification of coal and of lignite. But none of the options that we examined provided gas at a cost lower than from Kinsale. The capital cost of gas from Great Britain would be substantially greater than that of the cancelled Kinsale project. In reaching their decision the Government took full account of all those implications.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, and other noble Lords—I do not mean to slight other noble Lords, but the noble Lord initiated the questions—inquired about Lear Fan. By the middle of 1984 it had made inroads into its programme of certification testing. But your Lordships may be aware of the problems of carbon fibre, which is a fascinating new development, especially in the field of aircraft. It was always and at all times recognised to be a high-risk venture. Inevitably in such a venture there are uncertainties and delays in the programme of development. Everybody, including ourselves, would have wished to see greater progress towards certification of the Lear Fan 2100 by mid-1984. But there was no reason even then to believe that a certificate of airworthiness could not eventually be obtained. In October last year an important milestone towards certification was achieved when the Federal Aviation Administration granted type authorisation for an unpressurised fuselage.

On the question of funding by the Government, the company has since January of this year received £3.8 million under the legally binding financial agreement of September 1984 and almost £8,000 under the temporary short-term working compensation scheme. That will give your Lordships some indication of the size of the project. There are various other fact sheets. I can endeavour to see that the noble Lord receives them from the Industrial Development Board. I think I have covered most of the points. If I have missed anything, my eagle-eyed helpers will no doubt notice and we shall be in touch with the noble Lord.

The noble Lord, Lord Hampton, was kind enough to warn me that he had to move to another pressing engagement. He also asked me about Lear Fan, and also about the apparent variance in the figures for tourism in the order for Class II on page 4. I think one finds that at page II–15. At first sight there might be a variance. I think the noble Lord thought that the figure was £3.5 million. My honourable friend in another place mentioned a figure of £5.5 million. I think the variance is explained by the input of local authorities. My honourable friend in another place was taking the growth figure, including local authorities. The noble Lord might have seen the £3.5 million which was the central Government input. I hope that that covers some of the points raised by him.

The noble Lord also asked about Members of the Assembly receiving salary even if they do not attend. I am sure that your Lordships will accept that it is exactly the same arrangement as applies to another place here. The Government take the view that Assembly Members should be paid on the same basis. It may appear odd, but the Government take that view and I think that it is the right one.

The noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, asked about agriculture and milk quota. I had to pinch myself when he said such nice and kind things about me. I hope I can live up to perhaps 2 per cent. I shall not mention the dreaded figure of 9 or 10 per cent. All noble Lords interested in agriculture will agree that there are problems facing dairy farmers in the Province. I referred to them in my opening remarks. I am more than aware of the serious concern in the dairy industry in Northern Ireland. But today all I can say to noble Lords is that the Government are looking urgently at this matter. I know that the seasons are marching on. My right honourable friend and, indeed, all of us in Government are well seized of the problems raised by the noble Lord.

I noted the noble Lord's time-scale, and also some of his other comments about what might happen to me. However, we shall look to the future. Never bet on an hypothesis at any time! The noble Lord also referred to what we call the reduction factor. These figures are often referred to. I want to reiterate that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and I are continuing the discussion.

The noble Lord then referred to additional finance for grant aid in environmentally sensitive areas. The grant aid envisaged for environmentally sensitive areas is part of the proposals of the Government for implementing the new European Community regulation on farming structures. It has always been made clear that the proposals will have to be accommodated within existing public expenditure provisions. The proposed scheme will help to achieve closer integration of conservation and agricultural policies, which will benefit farming as well as the community in general.

The noble Lord also referred to a matter which is dear to his heart and my heart, and indeed the heart of my honourable friend in another place. This is about the noble Lord's Bill, the Private Road Races (Northern Ireland) Order 1977. We gave the very fullest consideration to the persuasive arguments which were raised by the noble Lord in favour of his Bill, both here in your Lordship's House and in correspondence. I assure the noble Lord that the fullest consideration was given by my honourable friend and by myself to all the points raised by the noble Lord. However, I have to say that everybody to whom we spoke confirmed the very substantial reservations which they had earlier expressed to us and—I do not know, but I hope—to the noble Lord. These reservations have been of considerable influence in the Government's decision that they really could not support the noble Lord's Bill as it stood.

The noble Lord raised the question of VAT exemption on old buildings. I am afraid I am unable to be of great help to him today. I have to tell him that it is not a matter for the Northern Ireland office or for any of the departments in Northern Ireland. However, I will ensure that his comments and the thoughts he has expressed to your Lordships today are brought to the attention of Her Majesty's Customs and Excise. I have no doubt that I can bring this forcefully to their notice, the noble Lord will be hearing from them as a matter of urgency, and, I hope, considerable courtesy.

The noble Lord raised the question of the Assembly. Or course, he is the only Member of the Assembly in your Lordship's House. We accept that the Assembly has done and continues to do a good job in its task of scrutinising the work of Northern Ireland departments. The quality of government and its responsiveness to local concerns is of course higher because of the work of the Assembly. However, the Assembly's main task is to make proposals for devolution which are likely to command widespread acceptance throughout the community. It has not done that, for reasons which we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, and of which those of your Lordships who live and work in Northern Ireland will be aware. However, I personally, and I am sure the Government, hope that some progress will still be made.

Of course direct rule is not perfect. It concentrates far too much power in the hands of central Government. We want to find a way of devolving some of that responsibility on a basis which will command widespread acceptance. However, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State will be talking to constitutional parties—and I stress constitutional parties—soon to discuss with them how matters might be continued and carried forward.

The noble Lord, Lord Blease, was kind enough to raise several points with me. Perhaps I may attempt to answer some of them. If I miss any, then, as is the usual procedure, I shall certainly write to the noble Lord. The noble Lord asked about staff cuts, both in my own department, the Department of Agriculture, and in the Department of Economic Development. Before I deal with those two particular departments, perhaps I may say that our overall policy regarding Civil Service numbers is indeed to reduce the overall total but to do so in a way which takes account of the pressures which face those individual departments and hence, at all times, to maintain the standards of service. Both those departments, the Department of Economic Development and my own department, the Department of Agriculture, expect to achieve their manpower targets mainly through improved efficiency arising from modification of work procedures, but also through increased use of information technology and a degree of privatisation of certain activities.

The noble Lord also asked about what progress we have been able to make in the case of three items, I think it was, under the IDB Vote, but certainly in recruiting specialist staff, and also whether the particular target in jobs was reached. First of all, the IDB has recruited a number of accounting and marketing specialists to increase and to strengthen the resources employed within the organisation on the appraisal of company business plans. The IDB has also embarked on a recruitment exercise to attract a number of well-qualified young executives who, after completion of a formal five-year training programme—I did not let the word "apprenticeship" slip out since I, too, have done something similar to this—will join IDB's team of development executives.

The noble Lord asked about the IDB job targets. The IDB exceeded its 1984–85 job target total of 5,250. It promoted 5,267 new job promotions. This was a 48 per cent. increase on the 1983–84 achievement. The figure that the noble Lord raised of 5,750 is, we think, a realistic target for the current year, 1985–86. It is early days, but the IDB remains confident that this target can be achieved. Also, the IDB have an interesting strategy document called Encouraging Enterprise. It is for the period up to 1990. Of course, it is the result of a careful process of analysis and consultation with a very wide range of interests. This strategy document reflects the views of the board. The Government are studying this carefully. It has been welcomed by everybody who takes an interest in the economy of Northern Ireland. However, as the noble Lord and your Lordships know, the strategy must not become an end in itself. However, it helps to sharpen the Government's own perception and the perception of industry, and all those who have the economy of Northern Ireland at heart. It helps to sharpen the picture of what all of us are seeking.

Lord Blease

My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord? Has there been a statement by the Government in support of the document and in support of the Industrial Development Board's strategy?

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I am sorry to have to say that I do not know. I shall certainly find out. I shall add my support to what I have already said. If that is not in a satisfactory form, of course I shall seek out the information and write to the noble Lord.

The noble Lord raised the question of the International Industrial Year. No specific provision has been highlighted for this particular project in the Estimates. The Department of Economic Development and the Department of Education, in conjunction with the representatives of both employers and trade unions, all want to play their full part in highlighting the importance of industry to the Province by undertaking a number of initiatives on this particular theme of industry.

The noble Lord asked, as I think did other noble Lords, about Short Brothers. I am glad to be able to tell the noble Lord, Lord Blease, and your Lordships that, following extensive discussions between the IDB and Short Brothers plc, agreement has been reached on commercial terms for the occupation of part of the old De Lorean premises in West Belfast. This agreement was reached yesterday, Thursday, on the basis of new proposals. The company, Short Brothers, will now acquire the fabrications building extending some 50,000 square feet from the IDB. It seems that Short Brothers will be undertaking extensive refurbishment and renovation work to the premises. I assure your Lordships that the company will have immediate access to the premises.

The noble Lord asked me about manpower councils. That is Class II, Vote 5. This is rather a long answer. May I put this in a written form to the noble Lord, Lord Blease? I hope your Lordships will forgive me for that.

The noble Lord had three more points which I hope to cover very briefly. First of all, the noble Lord asked about a youth council document. I understand that my honourable friend Mr. Scott is meeting the Northern Ireland Youth Forum today, which is Friday, to discuss their activities and their role in the Northern Ireland Youth Service. I want to stress that the contribution of the Northern Ireland Youth Service is one which we value very highly indeed. We are always happy to consider ways in which it can be further developed.

The noble Lord raised the question of the Ulster Museum. In the Estimates, the noble Lord will see that provision has been made for the purchase grants totalling £75,000 for the museums in the current financial year. I have not got this here. I think it is beside me, but I will not call for it. However, I myself noticed from my own examinations that the Ulster Museum receives £45,000 and the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum receives £25,000, but there is an item for the Ulster American Folk Park of £5,000, which I think is not in the Estimates that I saw. That is the small discrepancy that possibly concerned the noble Lord, Lord Blease.

The noble Lord also raised the question of Co-operation North. I echo the noble Lord's commendation of the recently published Co-operation North guide. This is a directory for North-South co-operation in Ireland. The Government have repeatedly voiced—I do so again today—our support for the work of this non-political and non-sectarian organisation that arranges a wide variety of activities across the border. As practical evidence of this support, the Government make an annual grant to Co-operation North, currently of £35,000 a year.

I am aware that some of your Lordships are waiting for me to conclude, but there are two more points that I wish to raise in response to the noble Lord. After that, I hope we may conclude. There was the question of the internal audit. I believe that I covered that in my earlier remarks. The noble Lord raised the question about the review of the home help services. The joint working group on the home help service in Northern Ireland recently completed its review of the service. It presented a report to the department. In view of the great importance of this service to so many people and, indeed, the interest evoked in your Lordships' House, the department considered it essential to take wider consultations—as wide as possible—before reaching, or attempting to reach, any conclusions on any analysis or recommendations that the report contained. Copies of this document have been issued to virtually everyone interested in the matter. They were asked to comment by 31st May. When all these comments are in—they should be coming in as we speak—we shall examine the best way forward.

I hope that I have covered 90 per cent.—I trust even more, because I hope always for perfection—of the points raised by your Lordships. I, like everyone. I am sure, in Northern Ireland, will be immensely grateful for the interest that has been shown by your Lordships and for the care with which everyone who has taken part in the debate has examined these Estimates. Forthwith, I commend the Estimates to your Lordships.

Lord Blease

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, I realise that he is operating under pressure from Whips. He has our sympathy. 1 drew attention in my opening remarks to the procedure arrangements for these debates. I would, however, welcome very much, as I am sure would the House, some statement about the Sports Council and the Barry McGuigan situation. That should be forthcoming. I know that the noble Lord would like to say something about it.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, in 20 seconds, I would add my personal congratulations to Barry McGuigan and, indeed, to all the sportsmen. I was pleased that the noble Lord mentioned Dunlop. I call him Armoy Joey. It is Mr. Joey Dunlop. All the sporting heroes of Ulster provide much happiness for everyone throughout the United Kingdom. They are shining examples throughout the world of sportsmanship and of the warmth of Ulster people—something which I have experienced for 14 months. I hope that the Sports Council can be of assistance. I beg to move.

Lord Blease

My Lords, I am obliged.

On Question, Motion agreed to.