HL Deb 12 June 1985 vol 464 cc1232-4

3.2 p.m.

Lord Boothby

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have now carried out the inquiry into the problem of traffic congestion in central London caused by coaches and heavy lorries which they undertook to make; and if so what conclusions they have reached and what action, if any, they propose to take.

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, discussions are continuing with the authorities concerned about many aspects of traffic congestion in central London, in which coaches and lorries play a part.

Lord Boothby

My Lords, does the noble Lord realise that unless something pretty drastic is done, other than by reducing the size of the police force which is now proposed, very soon the only way to get about London will be to walk? Does he also realise that that is the only thing that I can no longer do, and I am not alone?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I sympathise with the noble Lord. I would say, however, that this is primarily a matter for the GLC and the borough councils. We for our part met the GLC and the local authorities in May when the subject was discussed. We are meeting Westminster City Council next week to talk specifically about coaches, and we are also taking part in discussions with London Regional Transport, the police and other interested parties.

Lord Shinwell

My Lords, arising out of that important Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, may I ask whether there is not a rule or an understanding which enables Members of another place and of your Lordships' House to obtain access to Parliament without difficulty? Are the police advised about that and requested to render assistance if there should be any difficulty?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I am under the impression that there is some such arrangement. I am not personally very knowledgeable of it. I do not think that it is a question for the Department of Transport in any case.

The Earl of Kimberley

My Lords, does my noble friend realise that in 1978 Lord Amulree asked exactly the same Question as the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, and that is seven years ago? Is it not high time that something was done with great rapidity?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I would say that the traffic authority for London is the GLC, and perhaps at the moment we are doing something.

Lord Boothby

But you are abolishing it.

Lord Stallard

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the Transport Bill now before the House will exacerbate the position in central London and in other cities? Can he tell the House what steps he will be taking to ensure that the GLC retains the powers that he has mentioned?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, first of all, I do not accept that the Transport Bill will worsen the situation in London, which is what the Question refers to. Secondly, the powers that the GLC at present has, strengthened by the London Regional Transport Act last year, as regards sightseeing coaches will be retained by the successor authority.

Lord John-Mackie

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, raised the question of getting access to this place. My problem is getting away from it. If one tries to drive into Parliament Square from here, streams of pedestrians prevent you every time the traffic is clear from Bridge Street, and the moment that they have crossed, the traffic appears again.

Lord Boothby

And coaches, my Lords.

Lord John-Mackie

My Lords, if the noble Lord is giving advice to whoever is dealing with the GLC, could they take a look at the problem there?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I take the noble Lord's point. I would, however, say that tourism is an important part of the economy of London these days. We must balance these things. We must do what we can to encourage tourists, at the same time seeing to it that we do not clog up the city completely.

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, should have been dealt with a long time ago? It is becoming a matter of great urgency. Obviously, we must have the tourist coaches in London and in other places, but they have a tendency to concentrate in one place. The situation needs drastic examination. The GLC must be doubtful of what powers it now has, as I am, and so we need a study by the department to look at the question of coaches and perhaps to establish proper coach parks south of the river or in some other place. As much as we want tourists, they cannot be driven right to the doorstep of where they want to go.

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I quite agree with the noble Lord in many ways. As I say, that is why we are looking at this matter with the GLC and the borough councils, and Westminster City Council in particular. I hope that something constructive will come from those discussions.

Lord Strabolgi

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, as a result of the Victoria Coach Station, 900 coaches pass through the narrow residential streets in that area, many of them going up to the North and crossing London? Are the Government aware that in that district the level of pollution is now above EC limits? Are they proposing to consider an overall plan, or is it just to be left to individual district authorities?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I am aware of the situation in the Victoria area, though I would point out that in fact the number of coaches using Victoria Coach Station is more or less the same as it was many years ago. However, I do not disagree that the other traffic has increased. I am aware also of the pollution aspect which the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, raised last time we had a discussion on this matter. I have been in communication with him and I have undertaken that the Warren Spring laboratory will look into that matter.

Lord Monson

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that those of us with suspicious minds sometimes wonder whether the Government do not actively encourage tourist coaches to park opposite the Palace of Westminster so as to prevent too many noble Lords getting to the House in time to ask supplementary questions?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that his suspicions are entirely unfounded.

Lord Alexander of Potterhill

My Lords, would it help the noble Lord. Lord Boothby, other Members of this House and Members of the other place, and the police in facilitating access to the House or leaving it, if we had labels on our windscreens so that the police could recognise where we were going, and why?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I am a little uncertain as to what I say, but I understand that in years gone by many noble Lords and others had labels on their cars. I understand that those were removed for security reasons.

Lord Gainford

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the use of one's parliamentary pass can sometimes get one through a traffic jam, with the aid of the police?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, that is probably a very helpful suggestion from my noble friend.