Hospital Waiting Lists (Hansard, 10 June 1985)

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, the estimated average size of the in-patient waiting list in England for May 1974 to May 1979 was 588,000. Over the period the actual number waiting on lists rose to 752,400 at 30th March 1979. The estimated average for the period May 1979 to September 1984 was 676,000.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, bearing in mind that the average shows an increase of almost 1,000, what do Ministers' claims that they are reducing the hospital waiting lists now mean? Is this not the first time it has been revealed that, in fact, during the period of this Government people are having to wait very much longer to go into hospital, and more of them are having to wait to go into hospital than was the case during the period of the previous Administration?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, the higher average recent figure arises from two causes: first, the all-time high figure for waiting lists that we inherited from the previous Labour Government; and, secondly, the sharp increase caused by the industrial action in 1982 which the Labour Party supported. Under this Government waiting lists are falling. Under the last Labour Government they rose by almost a quarter of a million.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, does the noble Baroness the Minister accept that during the periods of both the Labour Government and the Conservative Government there were industrial disputes which affected the length of waiting lists? I am certain that we deeply regret that. When will the Government bring the level of waiting lists down to that, at least, of the average during the period when I and my predecessor were Secretary of State, and by what actions will it actually be achieved?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, on 30th September, 1984 there were some 683,000 people on in-patient waiting lists for all specialties, which is almost 70,000 fewer than at March, 1979. This shows that there is a continuing downward trend following, as I said, the disruption caused by the 1982 industrial action, which was backed by the Labour Party. During the period of industrial action between March and December 1982 the total increased by more than 122,000.

§ Lord Auckland
My Lords, can my noble friend the Minister inform the House whether the rural areas have higher waiting lists than the urban areas, and also whether there are bigger waiting lists for conditions such as hernia than for the more acute cases?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, the answer to the first part of my noble friend's question is that, to some extent, waiting lists, including those in rural areas, represent the problems of success. The wider range of treatments available, greater life expectancy and the increasing proportion of old people have all added to expectations and thus demands on the National Health Service. However, we all want shorter waiting lists and that is why the Government have concentrated the attention of health authorities upon the need to make the best possible use of resources.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether, as there are such very long waiting lists, she will cause her department to reconsider the proposals to close the Forest Hospital in the Chigwell urban district? That hospital is very much used by the local people and its closure would be a calamity.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I regret that I cannot answer about particular hospitals in the framework of this Question. But with regard to available beds, in 1983 there were some 140,000 available beds in the acute sector, and this compared with just under 150,000 in 1978. The fact that the National Health Service has been able to treat 650,000 extra cases in fewer beds is a sign of greater efficiency.

Lord Chelwood
My Lords, since average figures are so often misleading, are there any other conclusions 998 that my noble friend thinks the House should draw from her reply to the Question on the Order Paper?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I beliese that I have already given the answer that the waiting lists have gone down since we took office, as opposed to the situation when the Labour Party was in office, when the figures went up.

§ The Countess of Mar
My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that, to some extent, the figures are defective, because there are certain people who are on waiting lists who have perhaps died, or who have moved away or no longer require treatment, and also because consultants operate within their waiting lists a priority system and anyone who requires emergency treatment will be dealt with very rapidly?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Countess for what she has said.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that certain establishments which could have taken patients do not now exist, and, as they have been abolished they cannot have waiting lists? Is she prepared to take on board that there might be some items of the Government's policy which were not intended to increase waiting lists by the abolition of hospitals, and in so far as that was not their intention, will they have another hard look at what their policies are which, from their point of view, might inadvertently be creating waiting lists?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I think that I have already answered the question put by the noble Lord.

§ Baroness Masham of Ilton
My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether the Government are satisfied with the efficiency of the flow of patients from their own districts to specialised services beyond their districts?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, in answer to the noble Baroness, it is always open to a general practitioner to seek to refer a patient to a hospital which may be able to treat the patient sooner. The department is funding a pilot scheme in the West Midlands to give general practitioners more information about waiting lists at more distant hospitals. We hope that this will establish the value of this approach in providing more equal access to hospital services across the country.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, the noble Baroness has been most helpful in the information that she has given. I wonder whether she can say what is the present number of people on the waiting list, compared with the 588,000 which was the average during the period of the last Government. I understand that the figure is going down, but perhaps she can tell us what it is.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, as I said in my original Answer, the numbers are going down. But I have no figures for after September 1984, when the number was 676,000.