HL Deb 07 June 1985 vol 464 cc939-40
Lord Gallacher

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government how many organisations which submitted evidence to the Shops Inquiry Committee suggested later closing times than 6 p.m. on Sundays and 9 p.m. on other days.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Glenarthur)

My Lords, I regret that the precise information sought could be provided only at disproportionate cost, but the Auld Committee commented in its report at paragraphs 228 to 235 on the evidence received on the extension of trading hours. Its conclusion, which the Government accept, is that no reform short of the abolition of restrictions would be practicable.

Lord Gallacher

My Lords, in thanking the noble Lord for that reply, perhaps I should declare an involvement in this matter, as I acted as one of the assessors to the Shops Inquiry Committee. Will the noble Lord the Minister accept that to the best of my recollection and belief none of the national organisations which submitted evidence to the committee suggested later closing times than those specified in the Question? In view of that fact and the further fact that in the taking of oral evidence later shopping times than those specified were not much examined by the inquiry committee, will the Minister suggest to his right honourable friend the Secretary of State that before proceeding to total abolition there should be some consultation with national organisations representative of consumers, retailers, shop workers and local authorities to ascertain the practicality and desirability of what the Auld Committee finally recommended?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, the fact is that the Auld Committee pointed out that from the evidence it received, the evening is regarded primarily as a time for routine food shopping. Some shops in some localities which stay open after 10 o'clock at night rely heavily upon their out-of-hours business for their survival. I think that the main point really is that deregulation will not require shops to stay open; they will do so only to meet demand.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that this is a matter which is of concern not only to the national organisations referred to by the noble Lord opposite but also to the whole public as consumers, and that in this era of working wives late opening of shops is of very great social value?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, I entirely agree with my noble friend.

Lord Sainsbury

My Lords, does the Minister agree that this is such a complex subject, which we have debated in this House on several occasions, that it is not really in the interests of clarity to try to discuss it by means of question and answer?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, I think that the noble Lord is quite right.

Lord Graham of Edmonton

My Lords, will the Minister not admit that on this occasion the Government speak with a forked tongue? Is it not a fact that while they give a general welcome to the recommendations of the Auld Report for complete deregulation of hours and a potential 168-hour shopping week, they fail completely to say anything about the protection of the wages and conditions of shop workers?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary made quite clear recently in another place that he has agreed to look sympathetically at the best way of ensuring that established shop workers cannot be compelled to work on Sundays following legislation.

Viscount Tonypandy

My Lords, is the Minister aware that if the Government persist in wanting to change our Sunday they will be asking for trouble, and they have enough already?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, the noble Viscount will be aware that the Auld Report looked at this point in very great detail. My right honourable friend has said that legislation will come forward in due course. I think that it is best to leave it until then.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that flexibility of hours could help some people who wish to find employment in that it might provide additional jobs?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, again, I think that my noble friend is quite right.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, whatever the anomalies in the existing laws relating to Sunday opening, will the noble Lord bear in mind that there is a very large number of anomalies in all legislation? Will he also bear in mind that whatever may be the anomalies in this particular regard, they have at least secured a degree of serenity on Sunday and many of us would regret it if that were impinged upon?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, I am all for serenity on Sunday and I find it perfectly possible to have a serene Sunday and yet go to a shop.

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