Educational Standards: Action on Report (Hansard, 31 July 1985)

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, the report confirms the strong statistical association between examination performance and social background, and also points to better examination results by pupils at secondary modern and grammar schools than by pupils at comprehensive schools. As the authors state, the findings are capable of a variety of interpretations, the issues are very complex and the inferences drawn tentative. The Government will be studying the report in more detail before reaching conclusions on the findings.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that very interesting reply. Is my noble friend aware that to many of us the good performance of the secondary modern schools is particularly interesting and significant in this context, and does my noble friend share the view that these figures generally indicate how unfortunate were the changes which were made by Mrs. Williams some years ago?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, this may well come out when the more detailed considerations take place. It could be possible.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, perhaps I may ask the Minister whether the DES considers that the premises and data on which the National Council for Educational Standards was working are entirely satisfactory. Will the noble Earl agree that a more direct comparison between the abilities of pupils going into a school and the qualifications that they leave with, as suggested by researchers at Lancaster and Sheffield Universities, would provide a fairer picture?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, the department's views on the first report were set out in a statement issued in November 1983. Among other things, this explained that the department had been reassured about earlier doubts as to whether the sampling of schools was representative, but said that the question of appropriate adjustments in respect of social and economic factors in work of this kind was a matter for debate. At the time my right honourable friend explained that, contrary to some press reports, the 266 department does not regard the research as seriously flawed. I do not think that there is more to say on this matter, except that the authors of the report had taken these views into account when they produced this later report.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that many of us believe that the comparison is not worth the paper on which it is written and certainly does not warrant the conclusion drawn by the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter? Is the noble Earl further aware that comprehensive schools are never comprehensive; they never have the full range of ability because of the existence of so many independent schools and in some cases grammar schools? For example, in the City of Newcastle-upon-Tyne there are six independent schools. In those circumstances, the wonder is that the comprehensive schools do as well as they in fact do.

§ The Earl of Swinton
Yes, my Lords, in a way I agree with the noble Lord. The Government have no doctrinaire views about the various forms of secondary school organisation. Each has its strengths and its weaknesses. We take the view, which we set out in Circular No. 4/82, that no one pattern of secondary education has overriding advantages or disadvantages of principle, and that the form of secondary education chosen for an area should be that which is best suited to local circumstances and the preferences of parents.

§ Lord Beloff
My Lords, I should like to ask a question as a sponsor of the National Council for Educational Standards. Will my noble friend agree that the question asked and the remark made by the noble Lord, Lord Glenamara, that the comparison is not worth the paper upon which it is written suggest that it is extremely difficult to do serious research when those who do serious research are not argued with in terms of the problem but are subjected to prejudicial abuse?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I thought that the first statement of the noble Lord, Lord Glenamara, that all comparisons are useless, was such a useless question that I did not bother to answer it.

§ Baroness Gaitskell
My Lords, why are we slandering comprehensive schools? Some are good, and there are some which are not so good. But why do we dismiss them in this kind of way? It is not a bit attractive.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I think there must be an end-of-term feeling in the air, but if the noble Baroness reads my reply to an earlier supplementary question she will see that I was in no way attacking comprehensive schools.

The Lord Bishop of Norwich
My Lords, would the noble Earl be willing to answer a fairly broad supplementary question? I must declare an interest. As an elderly and approaching senile Prelate, I now have 11 grandchildren. Therefore, I am interested in future, long-term education. Without, I hope, in any sense name-dropping, the other day I was talking to the First Lord of the Treasury in another place and, therefore, 267 I am encouraged to think that my supplementary question may be quite a good one. When the right honourable Lady was speaking to me about her desire for her third term—and I was interested in what she had to say—I was reminded that she was of course an education Minister. Therefore, my supplementary question is one that I hope will be received with warmth. I am coming to it, my Lords—I really am—because this is my ultimate question in your Lordships' House, although if the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, gives such an outrageous reply to the Question about Guy's Hospital, which trained both my wife and my daughter, I may find that this is my penultimate question.
My question is quite simply: will the Government keep as a twinkle in their eye direct grant schools, which have served us so well in the past and might yet serve us well in the future?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, perhaps I may congratulate the right reverend Prelate not only on the fact that he took so long to ask his last supplementary question, thus ensuring himself a good last record in Hansard, but on the state of his family, he having 11 grandchildren. The Government regret the last Labour Government's abolition of direct grant schools. As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister made clear, we are always looking for means of widening parental choice. Whether one way to do this would be by means of some kind of direct grant scheme is presently under consideration. If a scheme which was feasible and affordable could be worked out, it would be experimental and subject to full consultation.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the right reverend Prelate—

Noble Lords
Order, order!

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the remark of the noble Lord, Lord Beloff, comes ill from one of the co-authors of one of the most scurrilous series of documents in English educational literature, the "Black Papers"? Is the noble Earl further aware that what I am saying, and what those of us who disagree with this document are saying, is that it does not compare like with like, and that surely makes it a flawed, invalid document?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I do not think that I am here either to defend the noble Lord, Lord Glenamara, against my noble friend Lord Beloff or vice versa. As the House will be up in about four hours, I am willing to second either of them if they wish to have a go on the Terrace! I do not think that I need say any more.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the House is much indebted to the right reverend Prelate for giving my noble friend an opportunity to make the extremely satisfactory supplementary answer which he made, and which completely demolished the noble Lord, Lord Glenamara? Is my noble friend also aware that the 268 House as a whole will greatly regret the departure of the right reverend Prelate, who has been a leading figure for so many years?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I think this looks like being a three-cornered contest. However, perhaps we could complete the discussion on this rather long Question on a happy note. I am sure that all would welcome the last part of my noble friend's supplementary question.