Prison Building Programme (Hansard, 26 July 1985)

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Baroness Cox
Yes, my Lords. Wayland Prison, the first of the 16 projects in the current programme, was completed last year and is now operating at full capacity. The new Stocken Prison, which was completed in April, has just begun to receive inmates, and a third project, Thorn Cross Youth Custody Centre, will do so shortly. Two more projects will be completed in 1986 and three in 1987. The remainder of the programme will come on stream as planned between 1988 and 1992.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that reply. Is the Minister aware that this Question is raised at a time when the prison population, at 48,100 is the highest on record? Was this intolerable and unacceptable total at this time taken into account when the building programme was framed? If it was not, is the Minister satisfied that the programme is capable of taking account of the upward curve in the prison population? Can we be assured that professional bodies, such as the Prison Officers' Association, are always fully consulted on the design aspects and many other aspects of prisons upon which undoubtedly they have expertise?

§ Baroness Cox
My Lords, the commitment to the building programme to put us on course to end overcrowding by the end of the decade was based on long-term projections of the growth of the prison population. The current projections, published in May 1985, continue to indicate that the commitment is still intact, suggesting a total population in 1991 in the range of 47,500 to 49,600.
However, these projections do not take account of the recent and indeed disturbing sharp increase in the prison population which currently stands, as the noble Lord said, at around 48,000. It is too soon to say whether this increase is a temporary fluctuation or represents a long-term upward shift. We shall review the position in the light of the next set of projections, which will be available in the new year. To deal with the noble Lord's second question, on consultation, there are established arrangements for consultation with the unions representing governors and also other prison staff at all points during the briefing and design stages of projects, and the views of staff are fully taken into account by the design teams.

§ Baroness Masham of Ilton
My Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether the new prison programme will relieve the problem of remand? Is she aware that Scotland and then England have the highest percentage of young prisoners under 21 in prison in Europe?

§ Baroness Cox
My Lords, on the question of relief of the pressure on remand places, five of the schemes in the programme are for new local prisons and one is for a new remand centre. Together these will provide some 3,500 additional remand places. The creation also of new places in training prisons will help to relieve pressure on local prisons, by facilitating the transfer of sentenced prisoners in the locals for whom training places are currently unavailable. Major modernisation and redevelopment work is in progress or planned at almost all the existing local prisons. The other point which the noble Baroness made is an important one.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that at no time since 1945 have there been enough prison places for those for whom they should be provided? The nearest we formerly have got to meeting the requirements was the programme a quarter of a century ago by Mr. R. A. Butler, as he then was, when he was Home Secretary. The Government's present building programme, which my noble friend has announced, is the greatest 1468 contribution made since Mr. Butler's prison-building programme and should, if reasonable expedition is used, go far towards solving the problem.

§ Baroness Cox
My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend for making that point.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, following upon what the noble Lord, Lord Renton, said, is not the real position that the new building programme will only serve to replace in part old prisons which are falling apart? Are the Government really considering sufficiently alternative proposals to custody? Are the Government, for example, able to announce a speedy programme in regard to the building of bail hostels?
Have the Government considered—and, if not, will they consider favourably—the offers of the National Association of Probation Officers in their publication of May 1985, in which they say that a great opportunity is being missed; that if only they had the necessary facilities and numbers they would be able to increase back-up facilities to extend that service's work with alcoholic, drug dependent, and mentally disturbed offenders, increase involvement in work within the community aimed at preventing crime, and indeed increase attention to the large group of young adult offenders involved in motor crime and burglary?

§ Baroness Cox
My Lords, the current total estimated cost of the programme to which the Government are committed is just over £360 million. In 1985–86 we plan to spend a total of about £48 million on building new establishments—which I think goes some of the way towards meeting the first of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon—and also £75 million on building work at existing establishments. So there is a considerable commitment of resources not only to renovation but to new institutions. So far as alternatives to custodial sentences are concerned, there is already a wide range of non-custodial sentences available to the courts. I am sure that my right honourable friend will take note of all representations made to him by professional bodies.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, I should like, if I may—

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, on the particular point of—

Noble Lords
Lord Mishcon!

§ Lord Mishcon
If the noble Lord will permit me—

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, with great respect, the noble Lord has already had one question. I am now following it up. Perhaps I may ask the noble Baroness whether she will give particular attention to this question of bail hostels. Is she aware that the growth of the prison population is already outstripping the growth of the number of new places which are being provided in this building programme? That being so, will she consider particularly whether some of this money could not be diverted to the construction of bail hostels, which apart from anything else are a great deal cheaper than places in prison?

§ Baroness Cox
My Lords, I shall certainly undertake to draw my right honourable friend's attention to that important point.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Harris, for having repeated the question that I previously asked.

§ Lord Wigoder
My Lords, and putting it, if I may say so, very much shorter.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, that might of course mean a not complete knowledge of the subject. I do not want to continue a debate at Question Time, and shall not do so; but is the noble Baroness able to give any answer to the question about the expedition of the building of bail hostels?

§ Baroness Cox
My Lords, as I have already said, I shall ask my right honourable friend that question. I do not have an answer this morning. I shall write to the noble Lord.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, I am grateful for the fullness and fairness of the Minister's original reply to my Question. Will she also take on board the crucial nature of the design of new prisons, bearing in mind the disaster of the design of the new prison at Holloway? Will she also acknowledge that no amount of money in the world spent on building new prisons will be any use unless there are discussions in respect of the proper manning levels within the prisons? Will she undertake that that matter will be considered in consultation with the prison officers and governors?

§ Baroness Cox
My Lords, the noble Lord may be reassured to know that the Home Office is currently conducting an appraisal of recent American prison designs in order to assess the extent to which we ought to take account of developments elsewhere. Concerning the important question of the relationship of manpower to buildings, my right honourable friend has already announced a major increase in the size of the prison service over the next few years in order to provide the staff to man the new prisons which are being built. Future manning levels are taken fully into account, along with capital costs, before new schemes are added to that building programme.