§ Lord LyellMy Lords, I beg to move that the Betting, Gaming, Lotteries and Amusements (Northern Ireland) Order, a draft of which was laid before this House on 26th June 1985, be approved. Your Lordships may have thought we were debating 1524 this subject on the last order, but I hope not. It is a much more bulky order than the last one but I hope it will not give rise to a lengthy debate. It may give rise to a detailed debate, especially from the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, and I look forward to a profitable contribution from him.
The purpose of the order is to bring up to date the social law in Northern Ireland on all forms of betting, gaming, lotteries and amusements with prizes. As noble Lords who come from Northern Ireland will know, these laws are outdated and are proving increasingly difficult to enforce. They have fallen into disrepute in many respects. The order seeks to remedy this highly unsatisfactory situation by replacing all existing enactments with legislation which will reflect current attitudes to gambling and demands for gambling facilities, and which can be expected, therefore, to command general public respect and be capable of proper enforcement.
The order before us is lengthy and complex legislation. I shall not weary your Lordships with all its detail but will concentrate on the main provisions. If any noble Lords want explanation or information I shall do my best to provide it accurately and swiftly.
Part I, which deals with the title, commencement and interpretation is self-explanatory. Part II largely re-enacts the existing law on betting but makes several changes aimed at making the whole procedure more efficient in its operation. The major change of substance is to allow greyhound tracks to operate a tote. Through a quirk in the existing law only horserace courses may be licensed to operate the totalisator in Northern Ireland, even though the law in the rest of the United Kingdom permits the tote at greyhound tracks. The Government see no reason why greyhound racing in Northern Ireland should not have the same facility, thus giving the punters at the greyhound tracks the choice between betting with bookmakers or on the tote. There are new rules for the conduct of bookmaking offices. Restricted sound broadcasts of race commentaries—in other words what I am advised is the "Extel" service—will be allowed. Also, in line with recent changes in the corresponding law in Great Britain, it will be possible to relax by subordinate legislation the restrictions on the facilities which may be provided in bookmaking offices, including television broadcasts. The Government have no immediate plans to exercise this power in Northern Ireland.
Part III of the order deals with gaming. It has five chapters. The first applies to gaming of a private kind—for example, within a family or between friends. Its aim is to force all gaming with potential for abuse into the control system which is to be established by Chapters II and III, as well as prohibiting all gaming in public places. Bankers' games and games which by their nature are not of equal chance are prohibited except on domestic occasions, as in one's own home or in places such as hostels.
We now turn to the question of bingo, and I am advised that Chapter II provides a comprehensive code for the control of bingo which is promoted commercially in private bingo clubs licensed by the courts for that purpose. The Government considered carefully whether to provide as in Great Britain for the 1525 licensing of gaming clubs, such as casinos, in which other forms of commercial gaming may take place, but we concluded that, apart from bingo, there was no evidence of any significant demand in Northern Ireland for this kind of gaming club.
Chapter III of this part deals with gaming by means of gaming machines. Anyone who wishes to supply or maintain a gaming machine will have to obtain from a court a certificate or permit authorising him to do so. The purpose of this and the other provisions of this chapter, is to prevent racketeering and the spread of machines in places where there is no real public demand for them.
I understand that there are also machines which go traditionally by the names of "jackpot" machines. I am told that these are gaming machines which may pay big prizes. These are prohibited except in registered private members' clubs or when used for fund-raising at bazaars, sales of work, fetes or similar entertainments promoted for non-commercial purposes. To have gaming machines, a club must register with a court, either under the order or under the Registration of Clubs Act (Northern Ireland) 1967. As in Great Britain, a registered club will be limited to a maximum of two gaming machines. Quite a few clubs in Northern Ireland already have more than that number—because the existing law has been interpreted by the courts as permitting the use of machines as a means of running private lotteries. I shall spare your Lordships the details. I have not the legal case, but, if anybody wanted it, I am sure I could find the decision of the court. However, Government see no good reason why clubs in Northern Ireland should have a greater entitlement to machines than clubs in the rest of the United Kingdom, where the limit of two applies.
Apart from any objections on social grouds to a greater number of machines, the Government are concerned on the basis of advice from the Royal Ulster Constabulary that in certain clubs in certain areas of Northern Ireland the proceeds from the machines are financing the operations of paramilitary organisations. Indeed, there is a strong case for a complete ban on the use of machines in clubs. However, the Government recognise that such a ban would be unreasonable, as clubs have had such machines for many years and as it would unfairly penalise the vast majority of highly respectable clubs which have absolutely no links with the paramilitaries. Taking all this into account, the Government have concluded that the limit of two—that is, two gaming machines in each establishment —is reasonable.
I see that my next heading is "Amusement With Prizes Machines". I assume that that may be clear to your Lordships. Certainly I am never quite sure whether when I go to a prize machine it is amusing when I seem to lose most of my stake. However, I am advised that amusement with prizes machines which pay prizes not £exceeding in value, are restricted to travelling showmen's fairs, licensed bingo clubs and premises of a type prescribed in regulations which are made by the department and either licensed for the sale of intoxicating liquor or granted an amusement permit by a district council.
1526 These provisions are much more restrictive than those in the law in Great Britain, where virtually any type of premises qualifies. In Northern Ireland, primarily to prevent exploitation of the machines by paramilitary organisations, but also on social and other grounds, the Government consider it essential to have the power to limit the range of premises entitled to install machines. In the short term, the Government intend that only amusement arcades and similar premises used mainly for the provision of amusements shall be allowed to install machines—subject, of course, to the grant of an amusement permit by a district council.
There is no prospect in the immediate future of the Government allowing machines in other types of premises, in particular, in public houses. I appreciate why, in this respect, the licensed trade in Northern Ireland should feel that it is being treated unfairly compared with the clubs, which will continue to be allowed to have their two jackpot machines. I hope, however, that your Lordships will accept and possibly that you will understand why the security advice must be a major consideration in deciding if and when any particular types of premises, which are, after all, open to the general public, should be prescribed. The Government—I give this undertaking—will keep the position under close review.
Turning to Chapter IV, we find that this provides for small gaming, which consists of games played at entertainments promoted otherwise than for private gain. This type of activity will cover such charitable and non-profit making activities as bridge and whist drives. But it will also allow other games such as bingo to be promoted by, for example, clubs for the benefit of the membership in general.
Chapter V is the last chapter of Part III of the order dealing with gaming. It allows clubs to make modest charges for taking part in equal chance, non-banker gaming, without contravening the general prohibition on participation charges in Chapter I. Clubs will be able to make small charges sufficient only to cover the cost of providing the facilities for the gaming. The department may by order vary the limit on the daily charge specifying different limits for different games. The chapter also prohibits, subject to the specified exceptions, the advertising of facilities for gaming and allows a landlord to evict a tenant or occupier of premises convicted of using the premises for illegal gaming.
Before leaving this chapter, I should like to mention the various regulatory and enforcement functions which, in Great Britain, fall to the Gaming Board. These will be discharged in Northern Ireland by other agencies—namely, the courts, the district councils, the police and, for some purposes, I am advised, the department.
Part IV of the order deals with lotteries. It makes all lotteries unlawful other than small lotteries at exempt entertainments, private lotteries and public lotteries promoted by a registered society for the support of charities, sports, or games or cultural activities or for other non-commercial purposes. The provisions for small and private lotteries largely re-enact the existing law. The major change is that societies registered with a district council for the purpose will be able to 1527 promote public lotteries. For the most part, these provisions mirror similar provisions for societies' lotteries in Great Britain. I should like to mention one particular protection. It is that anyone who wishes to act as an external lottery consultant or manager will have to hold a lottery certificate issued by the court. In Great Britain we have local lotteries which a local authority may promote for specified objects. I have not referred to these. But the Government's published proposals have provided for these primarily to test reaction, particularly of the district councils in Northern Ireland. The responses from the councils indicated that very few, if any, would want to run local lotteries. Furthermore, the Northern Ireland Assembly and several councils strongly opposed the provision on both moral and social grounds and because there had been no demand for it by councils. In the circumstances, the Government decided against local lotteries.
Part V deals with amusements with prizes and prize competitions. It allows amusements with prizes other than by gaming machines at non-commercial entertainments and, subject to specified restrictions, on a commercial basis at travelling showmen's fairs, in licensed bingo clubs and in premises that are used wholly or mainly for the provision of amusements, again under a permit by the district council. This part, Part V, re-enacts the existing law in Northern Ireland relating to newspaper and other competitions. It prohibits the conduct through any newspaper or in connection with any trade or business of any prize competition which involves forecasting the result of an event or any other competition in which success does not depend to a substantial degree on the exercise of skill.
§ 3.45 p.m.
§ Part VI covers a variety of matters. Cheating will continue to be an offence and gambling debts will remain irrecoverable in law. However, the police will have rights of entry without a search warrant to all premises with facilities for engaging in betting, gaming, lotteries and amusements with prizes and, with a warrant, to any premises.
§ I am advised that that is a brief outline of the main provisions of the order. I hope that your Lordships will bear with me, because there are 187 articles to the order, 21 schedules and an index which comprises nine pages. I shall not draw the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, to Article 155 onwards. I, too, found difficulty in defining a "pleasure permit"—perhaps it is not listening to Ministers taking 10 minutes to make brief remarks!
§ I hope that I have given a brief outline of the main provisions of this fairly thick and fairly detailed order. I have tried to give an adequate picture of the principal aims of the order. I assure your Lordships that the provisions of the order have been very carefully thought out. I emphasise that, while they have been based broadly on comparable provisions in the law in Great Britain, the Government have taken the maximum possible care to ensure that the provisions are tailored to meet the particular needs and circumstances which apply in Northern Ireland. I believe that the new laws will provide both a clear and 1528 a firm framework which will enable gambling to take place in Northern Ireland under proper controls. My Lords, I beg to move.
§ Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 26th June be approved.—(Lord Lyell.)
§ Lord Prys-DaviesMy Lords, this lengthy order of 187 articles has been described by Ministers in another place as one of the most significant pieces of legislation in social policy to be produced for a number of years and which will influence social policy up to the end of the century and into the next. Some may say that if that be a true description of the order, it is a sad commentary on social policy in the Province. The underlying philosophy is clear enough; it is the philosophy of the Royal Commission on gambling which reported in 1978.
Consistent with that philosophy, the order seeks to achieve three objectives: first, to reflect present-day attitudes to gambling, a more easy-going attitude than in former days; secondly, to produce a law which will command public respect; and, thirdly, to produce a law which will be relatively straightforward to enforce. That sounds very reasonable to reasonable people. Yet the department cannot take everything for granted.
I am impelled to draw attention to the fact that there are grounds for concern about the preparation of the order. It is said that the consultation was undertaken in too much of a hurry and that it was undertaken too late in the day, and it was felt to be inadequate. The Assembly complained bitterly about the inadequate time allowed for discussions and it spoke of dismay and disappointment at the refusal of the department to extend the consultation period. It appears to me that it is not fashionable in the department to extend the consultation period or a stay of execution. I notice that the Methodist Church and the alcohol and other drugs education committee of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland also complained of the lack of opportunity to give consideration to the terms of the order.
Therefore, there emerged a feeling that the consultation was not a consultation—it was merely a form of softening-up process. That comes through very clearly in the written evidence of the Belfast and Ulster Licensed Vintners' Association. I shall quote one sentence from their evidence:
It appears to us from the whole scheme of the Order that the decision is already made and our alleged opportunity to comment on the Order is only to give a cosmetic appearance in that the legislature and drafters of the Order will be able to say that, 'representations were received and all views considered'.".They are strong words. If their criticism is valid, that could be damaging for democracy in the Province.I notice that the Assembly favoured the setting up of a Gaming Board for Northern Ireland—mindful, no doubt, that the Gaming Board of Great Britain is highly regarded and has acquired a reputation for firmness and fairness. However, the proposal was not acceptable, the Government pointing out that the Gaming Board had been established originally to police the casino industry, which had swollen in the 1960s, and also to get rid of criminals who had invaded the territory. These were the historical reasons for setting up the Gaming Board, but it is not obvious 1529 to many that this can be used as a good reason for rejecting a different kind of central authority for the circumstances of Northern Ireland.
The Assembly wanted all forms of commercial bingo banned, but again this was not acceptable to the Government. Commercial bingo caters for a genuine social need by providing places where people can meet in a friendly atmosphere to enjoy an agreeable flutter, and one just wonders whether the Assembly paid adequate attention to its beneficial social role. In the absence of any evidence from the police, or from a body such as the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, that commercial bingo was leading to family neglect or to pressures on the family budget, I think the Goverment were right in rejecting the Assembly's proposal.
But the Assembly and many other organisations and individuals in the Province will be pleased that the Government have abandoned the proposal that local authorities should have the right to promote lotteries to raise money. Fortunately for the department, it did not have to come to a conclusion on whether or not this was a desirable proposal in its own right as there was, as the Minister explained, a lack of any positive demand by the local authorities for this fund-raising facility.
The Government have considered but refused the application by clubs to have more than two gaming machines, or the jackpot machines, and the Minister dealt with this refusal. I listened with great interest to the explanation which he advanced as to why the Government had not acceded to the request for more gaming machines. Whether or not the response of the police was hypocritical, as some people maintain, I know not, but it is nevertheless a revealing comment because it shows how difficult it can sometimes be to press the facts of Northern Ireland into the England and Wales mould, although I appreciate that even in England and Wales you can have only two jackpot machines in relation to a club.
With those few comments I should like to support the order, and I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Lye11, for having outlined its framework. We welcome and support it.
§ Lord FittMy Lords, in introducing the order the noble Lord the Minister said that this was one of the most voluminous orders that we had had before us. I hasten to assure him that the size of the order will not dictate the length of my speech. I think I spoke long enough on the last order. However, some things should be said. I want to pose the question right away: why are the Government so resistant to bringing about a gaming board in Northern Ireland? On setting up the gaming board in Great Britain the Government said that they were doing so because they believed that the coming into being of such a board would prevent criminal elements from having any significant say in gaming in Great Britain. If it is good for Great Britain, the Northern Ireland industry is asking for exactly the same type of treatment. One would go far and wide to find a parallel, because this industry is saying, "Let us have a gaming board. Let it be constituted by personnel of integrity, people who will ensure that 1530 there is no criminal involvement in gaming in Northern Ireland". It is to the credit of the amusement industry in Northern Ireland that it wants to impose restrictions on the possibility of any criminal element being involved. The Government say, "No". I do not believe that there can be any adequate answer to that attitude.
We hear repeatedly, and Ministers are foremost in coming to the Dispatch Box to say it, that the Government regard the Northern Ireland Assembly as a worthwhile institution. They say that it is composed of elected representatives who have been elected by the will of the people in Northern Ireland and therefore their voice should be listened to. That Assembly is unrepresentative at the moment in its sittings. It is mainly the majority community that is represented. There are a few members of the Alliance Party, but there is a total absence of the minority community as represented by Sinn Fein and the SDLP. However, those who were elected and have taken their seats in the Assembly have deliberated in the Assembly Committee on this order. They came to a conclusion which was unanimous and made 15 recommendations to the Government. The Government say that they will accept two of those recommendations but will not accept the other 13.
That is blatantly unfair because the Government are not as representative or as closely in touch with opinion in Northern Ireland as Members of the Assembly, because no Government Minister has had to seek votes throughout the constitutencies in Northern Ireland. I am well aware that I do not have a vote to speak here this afternoon. The Government should listen more intently to the voice of the Assembly because they keep saying repeatedly that it is an elected Assembly and performs some useful functions.
I listened to the debate in another place. I do not want to break any other procedural conventions in this House, but I heard the Under-Secretary of State who piloted this order through the other place say, to paraphrase his words, that he had absolutely no knowledge of the subject and what knowledge he had was not based on anything so vulgar as experience, but that he did once go into a betting shop. My God! He once went into a betting shop! He was the Minister in charge of piloting this order through the House. What a terrible admission to make in the House of Commons!
I go into a betting shop nearly every day of the week. I back horses, I back dogs, I do the pools; and as soon as this debate is over I shall have a very large gin and tonic. I do not think that that is anything to be ashamed of. But the elected Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly, representing as they do opinion in Northern Ireland, would be more in tune with what would be acceptable or not acceptable in Northern Ireland. The Minister has already put himself out of court by saying that he committed the terrible sin of going into a betting shop once in his life. From whom did he seek advice? Did he seek it from the civil servants in the Northern Ireland Office? Did he seek it from the police in Northern Ireland? Did he talk to all the Sabbatarians in the Civil Service? Did he talk to the non-drinking fraternity in the RUC? From whom 1531 did he seek this advice? I believe that there are elements within the Civil Service and within the RUC who would be totally opposed to some of the restrictions which are placed on the Northern Ireland community by this order.
§ 4 p.m.
§ I recognise that there is a very real difficulty in relation to the para-military organisations; and the Government quite rightly want to take whatever steps they can to make sure that the activities of the paramilitary organisations, both of the extreme Republican and the extreme Loyalist kind, are restricted. Formerly representing West Belfast, and knowing of the existence in these areas of extreme Republican clubs and extreme Loyalist clubs (because West Belfast at that time had extreme Loyalist and extreme Republican areas), I believe that there is absolutely no doubt that the para-military organisations are in control of some of the clubs in those ghettos. The fact is that they are asking to have numerous gaming machines, which have an attraction for young people. Once those young people are attracted into those clubs, they immediately become under para-military pressure to join one or other of their organisations. I think it right that the Government should take whatever steps they can to ensure that no machines of this kind are allowed to be operated in those clubs.
§ But those clubs are situated in areas in Belfast and in Derry, I suppose, and in Newry, I suppose, which can be very clearly identified; they are the Republican areas and Loyalist areas of Derry and Newry. But the vast majority of clubs in Northern Ireland are frequented by decent people. This applies throughout Northern Ireland, including the city of Belfast. Outside the ghettoes, there are a large majority of clubs which operate quite legitimately and in the interests of their members. I do not think that the Government by trying to impose restrictions on para-military clubs, should apply those restrictions to what would otherwise be quite legitimate clubs.
§ The restriction of two machines per pub on publicans is also very unfair. The publicans in Belfast pay rates and pay staff. Their overheads are much higher than the overheads involved in running a club elsewhere in Northern Ireland. I think that the publican fraternity in Northern Ireland has been very harshly dealt with over a number of years. There would not be any clubs of the type to which I have just referred, the type under the control of the paramilitary organisations, had it not been for the actions of the para-military organisations in blowing up pubs, causing explosions in pubs, in both the Loyalist and the Republican areas. When these para-military organiations cause explosions to wipe out the public-houses, then they begin to operate clubs of their own in those areas. It is like the black taxis on the Falls Road in Belfast and on the Shankhill Road. The paramilitary organisations burned all the buses that were operated by the public transport. As soon as there were no buses left, they then began to bring over a lot of black taxis from London; and we have the black-taxi trade in both Loyalist and Republican areas.
§ I can understand the restrictions that the Minister may want to impose, and I would certainly support him on the restrictions that he wants to place on these 1532 organisations. But I can see no valid reason why there cannot be a gaming board. The only objection that I would raise is on the residential qualifications which are imposed upon directors of the organisations which are mentioned in this legislation. It appears that one has to live in Northern Ireland. I can quite understand the logic of that but there are a few cases involved in this legislation where people who have formerly lived in Northern Ireland still carry on their business in that area. They are now living in England and are to be "disfranchised", or not allowed to be directors. Again, I think that the reasoning behind the Government's intention was to prevent some mafioso-type characters from London taking over in Northern Ireland.
§ All I can say to that is that we have our own mafiosi in Northern Ireland, and they are very well able to carry out their own requirements. Someone from outside, whether from London or Sicily, would be very easily identified by the republican or the loyalist sections of the community in Northern Ireland and might find himself getting his kneecaps blown off; so I think this was an unnecessary restriction that was placed on people who formerly lived in Northern Ireland and who still have connections there.
§ As I say, it has taken a long time for this legislation to come to fruition. An honourable Member speaking in the other place said that the vast majority of the people in Northern Ireland would not want to see machines in either clubs or pubs. I know the constituency that he represents, but I do not think that he is expressing the view of the Northern Ireland people, because there are many people in Northern Ireland who want to see legitimate interests operating. I think they are entitled to have those interests catered for.
§ On the question of lotteries, the Government have said that lotteries should not be made available in Northern Ireland. My Lords, lotteries are lotteries, and premium bonds are lotteries. Many thousands, if not millions, of people listen to their radios every Saturday or Sunday morning to find out whether their number has come up in the national lottery, otherwise known as premium bonds. If it is legitimate here, then it should be legitimate in Northern Ireland, if in fact people want lotteries. I do not think there is any great clamour for them, but on the other hand I do not think that any unreasonable restrictions should be placed on them.
§ On the question of the machines in the clubs, I think it may be that on advice which will be given to the Minister he may be able to increase the number of machines that are allowed to be operated legitimately in those clubs. But I ask myself: from whom will the Minister—because it will be the Northern Ireland Office which will be overseeing this legislation—be seeking this advice? If there was a gaming board, he could seek advice from the gaming board because its members would be appointed with those functions in mind. But if the Minister seeks advice from local authorities, from certain people in the RUC, from some of the courts or from some of the legal representatives, he is liable to get conflicting advice. And if, as he has said in another part of this building, he has absolutely no experience of gambling or gaming, he may come to the wrong conclusions.
§ I do not think this order has been given the attention that it should have been given. I believe that more 1533 recommendations promulgated by the Northern Ireland Assembly should have been accepted. I believe that the Government are right to take whatever action is possible to stamp out paramilitary involvement in those clubs, but I do not believe that enough consideration has been given to this order.
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, and the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, for taking part in the discussion of this order. I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, has been able to give us, if I may put it so vulgarly, the benefit of his experience. However, I will say more about that later if time permits: I am aware that your Lordships have other business and I will try not to delay that for too long.
The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies—and we are grateful for his remarks—referred to the consultations that we might have held with outside interests on the contents. Over the years (and these are more than a few) the Government received numerous representations from many different sections of the community, all of whom had an interest in the reform of the law in Northern Ireland relating to betting, gaming and lotteries—not all, as the noble Lord will appreciate, constructive. Many of these organisations deplored any form of betting, gaming or lotteries, or indeed amusements of this type. But before publishing any of their proposals the Government had extensive discussions with any bodies which were known to have views on particular aspects of the law or on particular sections of what we have been discussing in this particular order. When the proposal for the draft legislation was published last year, all the interested parties who had not already made their views known to the Government were urged to do so. I am able to tell your Lordships that many bodies availed themselves of that particular opportunity.
I stress to the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, that in addition there was full consultation with the Royal Ulster Constabulary prior to and during the preparation of the draft order. I shall convey his thoughts to (what did he call it?) the non-gambling or non-drinking section of the RUC. That will no doubt be treated with "horse" or, perhaps, "greyhound" laughs tonight. I shall convey his compliments to that august and brave body of men. I have certainly found that some of them are non-drinking, but not so many as the noble Lord clearly has.
The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, was also concerned about extending the consultation period. We were anxious that the introduction of this legislation should not be unduly—and I stress that word—delayed. Normally the consultation period on legislation of this type is limited to six weeks, but because of the complexity—the bulk of this particular report and, indeed, this legislation—the Government decided that the period should be extended and that nine weeks would probably be adequate in this case. But I stress that full consideration was given to every single view which was expressed.
The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, and indeed the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, referred to a Gaming Board. I enjoyed the comment of the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, 1534 about the Mafioso. No doubt writs will soon fly from that esteemed firm Messrs. Sue, Grabbit amp; Runne", if the noble Lord is not careful about deploring one section of the community or another. But the need for the Gaming Board in Great Britain arose primarily from the decision to allow what I am advised are commercial gaming clubs here in Great Britain. But since there is no apparent evidence of a demand for such clubs in Northern Ireland—and, indeed, the order does not provide for them—we consider that the setting up of a Gaming Board would not be justified. But the certification and the policing functions which are related to other types of gaming activities which are carried out by the board in Great Britain will be discharged, in appropriate cases, by other bodies in Northern Ireland, which include courts, local authorities, the police and, for certain purposes, the department.
The noble Lord, Lord Fitt, made a number of points. He asked where I sought advice. I am afraid that the order does not attempt to stop any gambling. What it seeks to do is to allow many forms of gambling or games of chance to take place under adequate control. I am sure that the noble Lord would be at one with that.
The noble Lord referred to gaming machines in certain clubs. The huge majority of the clubs, of course, are law-abiding, but, as he will know, and your Lordships I am sure would accept, it is simply not possible to differentiate in legislation such as that which we have before us between those who are good and those who are less reputable among the club fraternity.
The noble Lord mentioned the licensed trade in Northern Ireland. I appreciate that they feel they are being unfairly treated compared with clubs in that the registered clubs would be permitted to have two of these gaming machines and the pubs would not be able to have any at all for the present. But the fact, which may be regrettable, is that because of police advice about the prevailing situation of security, the Government felt it necessary to exercise really tight control over the types of premises in which gaming machines can be installed. This is much tighter than the corresponding law in Great Britain.
Lastly, the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, took me to task for disregarding the strong views and the recommendations of the Assembly. I accepted one of the major recommendations of the Assembly, as I am sure the noble Lord will agree. That was that the provisions for district council lotteries should be removed. I explained why the Government did not feel that they could accept the Assembly's other main recommendations, which were that there should be a gaming board, that commercial bingo clubs should not be permitted and that clubs should be allowed more than two gaming machines.
But the Government accepted several other minor recommendations from the Assembly; for example, that applicants for licences, including the directors of companies seeking licences, should reside in Northern Ireland. I see the noble Lord nodding. Clearly he has knowledge. I do not know whether he will have an accommodation address and be involved in that industry, will take out a bookmakers'—or, as they call themselves in Northern Ireland, guardians of the 1535 turf—licence. But that will be old hat for the noble Lord. Certainly, we insist that applicants should reside in Northern Ireland, but the noble Lord himself questioned the acceptance of that recommendation.
I conclude by taking strong issue with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, about my honourable friend who I noted in col. 646 of Hansard of another place of 19th July had done such vulgar things as visiting a betting shop when discussing legislation. The noble Lord and I—he crosses himself busily—were both discussing sex shops recently. Any suggestion in your Lordships' House, or anywhere else, by the noble Lord that he or I would be in such establishments will be met with the full force of that great firm of libel lawyers, to which I referred earlier—I think it is Lord Strobes and Lord Gnome—which will descend with full fury on the noble Lord. On the other hand, he and I might have fruitful discussions in private as to where we can continue our researches. With that, I beg to commend the order before your Lordships.
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.