§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are in a position to make a statement concerning the progress made on the draft European Community directive for product liability.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Lucas of Chilworth)My Lords, the draft directive is on the agenda for the meeting of the Council of Ministers in Brussels today. I cannot of course predict the outcome of that meeting, but the United Kingdom has lifted all its reserves on the directive and we see no reason for delaying its adoption. I hope that other member states will be taking the same view.
§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, while the Minister is not responsible for the Council of Ministers having shifted their time from 10 o'clock this morning to 3 o'clock this afternoon, does he not agree that it is very disappointing for the House as a whole, after 10 years, not to have the benefit of what I had hoped would be a satisfactory Answer? Arising from that, may I further ask the Minister whether I am correct in assuming that a decision, whether it is a good one or a bad one, will obviously be reached this afternoon?
Moreover, in view of the long-standing interest in this particular matter in your Lordships' House, I should like to ask the Minister whether the Government feel able to keep the House advised of what happens. Does he agree that the only way that that can be done would seem to be if the Government either accept a Private Notice Question or agree to make a statement on the decision reached before your Lordships' House rises for the Recess?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I share the disappointment of the noble Baroness, who has worked so very hard over the years to bring this matter to a satisfactory conclusion, as the House will recall. So far as the decision is concerned, I am afraid that I am not really able to say yea or nay to that, because if the Brussels conversations go on through the night and into tomorrow obviously there will not be an answer forthcoming this afternoon. I can give the House an assurance that if the opportunity arises I shall see that it is informed of any decision, though of course exactly by what means is not within my province.
§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, I am being very amenable, and I realise that, after 10 years, if 1364 these discussions last another 10 hours that is a very small proportion of the time involved. May I ask the Minister whether he recalls that I asked him whether we could have a statement before the House rose, and whether he agreed that the Council of Ministers was unlikely to sit until next Wednesday evening before something was said?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, whether the Council of Ministers will sit further into today or later this week or next week is a matter for them, and one can foresee (though I hope that this will not happen) that the matter may be deferred. As regards the latter question of the noble Baroness, I can only repeat that as soon as a decision is reached I shall seek to inform the House of that decision. However, it is not in my province to determine the method by which such information will reach your Lordships' House.
§ Lord Allen of AbbeydaleMy Lords, perhaps I may add my voice in support of the request for a statement. As a surviving member of the Pearson Royal Commission may I also say what good news it is that we seem to be on the verge of completing a reasonably satisfactory agreement? May I ask yet again about the defence of development risks in relation to drugs which apparently we are going to allow in this country? I have just received a helpful letter from the Minister. I am very well aware that this is not a simple black and white issue, but is it not a fact that in this country, unlike in France and Germany, if things were to go wrong the hapless individual could bear the full burden instead of the manufacturer? Does the Minister appreciate that there are still many of us who hope for a change of heart by the Government or by their successor before the relevant legislation is introduced within the permitted three-year period?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I appreciate the concern of the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, in this matter. As he acknowledges, I sent him a fairly full letter, a copy of which I placed in the Library. It may be argued that the development risk defence does to some extent emasculate the directive's provision for strict liability in respect of drugs, and in particular that it might let off the hook the producer of a modern-day thalidomide disaster. But I think it must be remembered that the test of the state of scientific and technological knowledge of the time is a very tough and dynamic test, and I do not foresee the difficulties that the noble Lord is suggesting.
§ Lord BroxbourneMy Lords, will my noble friend confirm that the very lengthy gestatory processes of this directive, which were referred to by the noble Baroness opposite, do not make it a case of monies parturiunt? Will my noble friend further confirm that the implemention of what is now in essence a compromise directive, following 10 years of useful and lengthy discussion, will bring two substantial benefits: to consumers by the substitution of the principle of strict liability for the much-criticised anomalies of the existing law, and to producers by the incorporation of the development risks so-called state-of-the-art defence?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Broxbourne for his question. Certainly the adoption of the directive will bring direct benefits to consumers. We also believe that it will bring direct benefit to producers in that though it will not be a complete harmonisation, to a great extent it will be a removal of a barrier to free international trade, which is one of our aims in the Community.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, is the Minister in a position to say whether patients for whom drugs are prescribed in this country will be at a disadvantage compared with patients in the rest of the Community? That seems to be the point which my noble friend, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, is making. If that is the case, will it not place this country at a disadvantage? May I ask what steps the Government are taking to ensure that in fact we are on the same footing as the other countries of the Community? I am grateful to the Minister for sending me a copy of the letter that he wrote to the noble Lord.
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I think that the letter sets out fairly lengthily the position with regard to the supply or the manufacture of drugs in other European countries. We do not foresee that a patient in this country will be at any disadvantage as to the source of the manufactured drug, since in this country we have of course the Act on the protection of medicines which should give total protection to any patient here.
§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, if I could revert to the original Question—I am not speaking on the merits of the case, and I agree with what the Government have done—does the Minister recall that in his reply to me he said that he would keep the House informed? What I am trying to find out is how he will keep the House informed. As the noble Viscount, Lord Whitelaw, is away, I do not know whether my question should be directed to the noble Lord, Lord Belstead: but I do not want to be referred to the usual channels. Can the Minister please tell me whose responsibility it is for accepting a Private Notice Question or for a request that a Statement should be made? Does he recall that for many months this House has pursued this matter? We shall have a decision this afternoon, whether it is good or bad, and I am asking that that should be made known orally to your Lordships' House.
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, again I promise the noble Baroness that I really appreciate what she is asking: but I have to say that I shall inform the House as to the outcome of this afternoon's discussions in Brussels in the best way that I can. I shall certainly be seeking the advice of my noble friend the Chief Whip, who no doubt will discuss through the usual channels with the Chief Whip of the Opposition the best way in which this may be done.
§ Lord AiredaleMy Lords, am Ito understand that it is already too late to try to persuade the Council of Ministers that to make somebody legally liable without proof of fault on their part is contrary to natural justice and that the only civilised way to compensate people who have suffered injury through 1366 accident is by an extension of the National Health Service which already meets their immediate needs?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, in not agreeing with the noble Lord I think that that question is very wide of the matter before us this afternoon.
§ Lord Nugent of GuildfordMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that we have taken 10 minutes on this Question, so it may be about time we moved on to the next one?