§ 3.25 p.m.
§ Lord RodneyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what was the increase in the United Kingdom employed labour force from March 1983 to the end of 1984.
1371§ The Minister Without Portfolio (Lord Young of Graffham)My Lords, between March 1983 and December 1984 the employed labour force in the United Kingdom increased by 618,000.
§ Lord RodneyMy Lords, I would like to thank my noble friend for that very encouraging reply. Can he say how those figures compare with the percentage increase or decrease of civilian employment in the main industrial countries?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for his question. It is, indeed, an interesting question—
§ Lord Young of GraffhamMy Lords, yes, the answer is extremely interesting, because in 1984 employment in the United Kingdom increased by 380,000 and employment in the rest of the Nine decreased. The other countries which showed an increase in employment within the Nine were Italy where the figure was 104,000; Denmark, 58,000; Belgium, 11,000, and the Netherlands, 3,000. Germany showed a decrease of 54,000; Greece, a decrease of 8,000, and Ireland, a decrease of 15,000. France, which had the unfortunate occurrence of following policies advocated by noble Lords opposite, showed a decrease of 218,000.
§ Lord BeswickMy Lords, if there are these extra people in work, earning money and increasing potential demand, is there not even less excuse for having so many more people out of work?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamNo, my Lords. We are one of the few countries in the world showing such a massive and steady increase in employment. We are also one of the few countries in the Western world which is showing an increase in the employed labour force and in the labour force available for employment. That is a matter which time will rectify. If we carry on with present policies and are not diverted, we shall see employment rising at a rate which will soon overtake the increase in the employment force.
§ Lord BeswickMy Lords, will the noble Lord be good enough to answer my question? If there is a greater potential demand, why have we not more people in work meeting that demand?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamMy Lords, we have. We are one of the few countries in the world showing a massive increase in employment. May I remind your Lordships of the enormous differences that have taken place in the world, between, say, the whole of Europe, including the Ten, and the United States of America. Back in 1970, Europe, as a whole, including the United Kingdom, had about 107 million people in work and the United States had 82 million people in work. Within the next 12 months, the number of employed people in the United States of America will overtake the number of employed people in Europe, and we are 40 million souls less. The answer is simple. It is only the policies carried on by this Government 1372 that are leading to the increase in jobs. These policies will be followed and we shall continue the overtaking process.
§ Lord DiamondMy Lords, as the noble Lord is fortunately so well informed on these matters of comparative figures, no doubt he is also well briefed on the figures applying to his own Government and to this country. Can he say therefore what are the figures in relation to the fall in numbers of employed in this country since the noble Lord's Government took office in 1979? Is it correct to say, for example, that the number of the employed labour force has fallen by over 1.75 million from the time when the Government first took office until the date conveniently chosen as the starting date in the Question? Is not that some two and a half times or more the small rise which has taken place since then? When will the employed labour force get back to the figure at which it stood when the Government took office?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamMy Lords, the noble Lord is nearly right. Since the early 1980s we have lost over 1 million jobs in this country. That is absolutely true. However, we should ask ourselves why that is so. For the 12 years from 1970 to 1982 this country was bottom of the growth league in the whole of Europe. I repeat: it was bottom. However, since 1982 not only have we been at the top of the growth league but this year we shall overtake the United States of America. The Government have shown that, buying jobs by compromise which leads to overmanning, is the slow but sure path to decline and decay. The Government's policies and the policies which they are following through are leading to jobs which will have a secure foundation. The jobs which we have today are jobs which will last.
Lord Wallace of CoslanyMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I heard all his answers on television a few days ago when he was interviewed? Will he tell us how many of the people who comprise this alleged increase are involved in productive industries as opposed to service industries?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamMy Lords, my spirit sags. If the noble Lord had heard me on television a day or two ago then perhaps he would not be asking this particular question. All employment is productive. There is a myth that employment is only productive if it produces things. Employment is equally productive if it is in a factory, in a hotel, in service sectors or in manufacturing. It is all employment, and that is the way towards wealth generation. The mythology that somehow we must get our hands dirty and make things, because that is the only way in which to be in productive employment, is something which time has shown not to be correct.
§ Lord LeatherlandMy Lords, will the noble Lord tell us how many people are unemployed in this country today?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamYes, my Lords. We all know the figure: it is some 3,200,000 plus. However, we also know that the number of people in employment after the uncertain period in the 1970s is slowly, steadily, surely but inevitably increasing.
§ Lord LeatherlandMy Lords, did I understand the Minister to say—the acoustics are not very good—that there are 312,000 people unemployed? Surely the figure must be more than that?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamNo, my Lords. The noble Lord opposite was talking about the number of those people claiming benefit. We live in a society in which I freely admit there are people who are looking for work and who are not registered as unemployed. I suspect that there are a large number of people who claim benefit who are also not looking for work.
§ Lord LeatherlandMy Lords, will the Minister—
§ Lord LeatherlandMy Lords, I know that it is an awkward question—
§ Lord Stoddart of SwindonMy Lords, the noble Lord said that he expects soon that the growth in jobs will overtake the destruction of jobs. In those circumstances, will he tell us just exactly when there will be a significant reduction in the unemployed total?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamNo, my Lords, because it depends upon the steady progress of the economy and the course upon which we are now set. Patience is a virtue. The one thing about which I can assure your Lordships' House is that the policies which the Government have been following, and will continue to follow, and from which they will not be deflected, will be those policies which will bring the right result.
§ Lord LeatherlandMy Lords, may I ask my simple question again? How many people are unemployed in this country today?