HL Deb 22 July 1985 vol 466 cc990-1

2.58 p.m.

Lord Ezra

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they propose altering the basis of the 1986 English housing condition survey, and, if so, whether this will invalidate comparison with the 1981 survey.

Lord Skelmersdale

No, my Lords.

Lord Ezra

My Lords, in thanking the noble Lord for that laconic reply, may I ask whether he is aware of the widespread concern about the condition of housing in this country which, based on the 1981 survey, indicated that one in four houses were in urgent need of repair? May I also ask the noble Lord for his confirmation that he agrees that regular, detailed and comparable information should be provided on this subject?

Lord Skelmersdale

Yes, my Lords, I am well aware of what the 1981 English housing condition survey revealed, and this is all very much part of the infrastructure debate which is going on within the confines of Neddy at the moment. As regards comparability between the 1981 and 1986 surveys, I totally agree with the noble Lord.

Baroness Birk

My Lords, is the noble Lord not aware of his Government's own Green Paper on this subject, published on 9th May, which encourages the repair and improvement of housing? Is he further aware that in that Green Paper there are proposals for redefining "repair" so that "disrepair" means, "dangerous structural disrepair", and "damp" is defined as, "dampness so pervasive as to be a threat to the health of the occupant"? Does this not mean a great lowering of standards? Perhaps the Minister can tell the House how many houses now classified as unfit would, under the new proposals, be reclassified as fit.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, yes of course I am aware of the Green Paper and the standards of fitness paragraph contained in it. But since the minimum housing standard dates back to 1968 and the last minimum standard in England and Wales was set in 1957 it is small wonder that consideration of it should be required from time to time. As the noble Baroness well knows, a Green Paper is a consultative document. The document has gone out to over 500 interested organisations and there are no plans at the moment—in fact it would be impossible—to change the fitness standard before the 1986 English housing condition survey got underway.

Lord Davies of Leek

Is the noble Lord aware of the urgency in the demand to improve the infrastructure in regard to modern housing? Sewerage and drainage systems are of paramount importance and many now need attention. Some of them are more than a century old. While there is currently unemployment, this is a chance to provide work for people, and some jobs could be done more cheaply now than if we wait until the situation grows worse.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, this is a point of view which is gaining very wide currency. I have already referred to the infrastructure debate which is going on within the confines of Neddy. However, if such action has to be taken it has to be based on modern, up-to-date scientific sureveys.

Baroness Birk

My Lords, I am sorry to come back on this matter but the noble Lord has still not answered the point that these redefinitions were proposed and put down in the Government's own Green Paper. Is the noble Lord saying that there is no redefinition intended; or if there is redefinition intended, is he also then prepared to agree that this will lower the standards considerably and mean that there will be more and more housing in a lamentably poorer condition even than there is at the present time, which is making it as low as it can be?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, as I pointed out when the noble Baroness asked her first supplementary question, we are consulting on redefinition of the minimum housing standard, but we do not intend that this should be lower or would change the figures substantially. We do not know of course what will be in the new definition until we have consulted upon it.

Baroness Fisher of Rednal

My Lords, after the Minister has obtained the new figures and the redefinition, will the Government be considering putting any more financial resources into overcoming the problem, which is of paramount importance now, without having any further reports?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, spending on housing is one of the very important matters which are considered every year in the Public Expenditure Review, and it would be absolutely impossible for me to pre-empt what will be in the next or any future one.

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