HL Deb 16 July 1985 vol 466 cc679-87

7.26 p.m.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Lye11)

My Lords, I beg to move that the draft Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Northern Ireland) Order 1985, which was laid before your Lordships' House on 20th June, be approved.

There have been extensive consultations with local representatives in the Province on the main provisions of the order both at the formulation stage and later when the proposals were published. The revised powers for district councils to license places of entertainment and the new powers to control sex shops are based on recommendations from the district councils, the Northern Ireland Assembly and other interested parties.

The procedures for entertainment licensing are set out in Schedule 1. In addition to the current requirement for licensing public music, singing, dancing and boxing promotions, the order would extend the licensing system to private clubs providing entertainment, pool rooms, certain amusement arcades and pop festivals. The object of these wider licensing powers is to secure adequate standards of safety in places where large numbers of people congregate in confined places, and this aim will I am sure have the support of your Lordships.

Schedule 2 of the order would give councils in Northern Ireland the same powers to control sex shops as are already available to local authorities in Great Britain. Where a council has resolved that the appropriate number of sex establishments for a particular locality is nil, a licence can be refused.

Part III of the order is intended to protect local residents from disturbances due to late-night trading by establishments such as take-away food shops and late-night restaurants. Where there are valid complaints councils will be able to serve closing orders but businesses in non-residential areas will be able to provide an all-night service.

Part IV of the order authorises grants to district councils to provide serviced sites for the travelling people. Some councils have already provided sites with the aid of extra-statutory grants from the Department of the Environment and more sites are planned in the future. Part V of the order will give councils discretionary powers to control the practice of acupuncture, tattooing, ear-piercing or electrolysis within their districts.

Under Part VI, councils would have a number of new functions. Article 17 will modernise and extend the legislation on cremation. Article 18 will remove any doubts as to the powers of councils to remove graffiti and fly posters. Articles 19 and 20 will provide new sources of revenue by authorising the sale of advertising space on council property and the sale of spare computer capacity, and Article 21 will enable councils to provide bus shelters.

Part VII makes a number of improvements to existing government legislation. Article 28 transfers decisions on surcharges to the courts in line with the position in England, and Article 30 authorises local government auditors to carry out efficiency studies. Article 39 gives councils new powers to combat the sale of unfit meat by extending the definition of what is called a "knacker's yard". In future, councils will be able to control any place where unfortunate "casualty" animals are killed or where any meat is processed.

Article 40 replaces the powers previously contained in the elections legislation for councils to fill casual vacancies by co-option. The Government's legal advisers are of the opinion that since this provision relates to the powers of district councils it should be legislated for under local government law.

Article 41 provides procedures for paying centrally for services supplied to district councils by organisations prescribed annually by order. The total would then be deducted from the general grant to councils. There would, of course, be detailed consultations with councils to decide which organisations would be specified annually. This arrangement will give parity with the corresponding provision for England.

The order before us this evening is the first piece of main legislation on local government in the Province since reorganisation in 1973. I hope that the district councils will find that it will make a worthwhile contribution to the more efficient administration of local services. With that brief run-through of the order before your Lordships, I commend it to the House. I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 20th June be approved.—(Lord Lyell.)

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, the noble Lord the Minister has illustrated that this order covers a wide range of activities to be exercised by local authorities in Northern Ireland. It contains an admixture of powers for the well-being of the community. They deal with entertainment licences, gipsy sites, bus shelters, powers of auditors, voting procedures, burial grounds and crematoria, payments for deceased officers of councils, and so on, to name but a few.

Some are important powers and others are minor. It would require half a dozen experts on this Bench to do justice to the provisions of this order, whereas we are in fact without a single expert—except my noble friend Lord Blease, behind me, who is a mine of information about the Province.

We welcome the licensing by councils of entertainments as provided for in Article 3 and Schedule 1, and also the licensing of sex establishments in Article 4 and Schedule 2. The Province has seen its share of social changes over the past decade or two, and those changes have helped to fashion these two provisions. Clearly the fire authorities have an important role to play in determining the conditions to be imposed on the granting or renewal of an entertainments licence. That is fully recognised in the order.

One would have thought that the police had a similar role to play, but I wonder whether that has been lost sight of in the order. For example, will the police be specifically invited to offer comments on the merits or demerits of an application for a licence or renewal of a licence?

We welcome very much the power given to the Secretary of State to make grants to enable local authorities to provide adequate sites for gipsies residing in their areas—many of them living in appalling conditions. Can the Minister tell the House how many sites are still needed in the Province to meet that urgent need? We hope that the grant aid henceforth available, although it will not contribute to running costs, will enable those authorities who are sympathetic to the gipsy situation to go all out to provide adequate and decent accommodation for the gipsy community, in a manner to which they are entitled as people.

Before I leave the subject of gipsy sites, I should be grateful if the Minister would confirm that local authorities will have to serve a 24-hour eviction notice to the occupants of a caravan before proceeding to remove the vehicle. I ask for that confirmation because Article 10(3) refers throughout to the "owner and occupier" of land, whereas Article 10(6) refers to "the occupant" of a caravan stationed on the land. It is not clear, at least at first sight, whether 24 hours' notice of removal has to be given to the occupier of the caravan. I should have thought that a gipsy was entitled to have 24 hours' notice served on him.

Article 34 and Schedule 3 introduce a relaxation of departmental control over councils. Given the generosity of Article 34, how does the department justify Article 25, which requires the terms of a loan to an officer by a local authority for the purchase of a motor-car or even a motor-bike to be approved by the department? Why should the department, which is burdened with so many weighty matters, want to be directly involved in this tiny area? Should not this be left to the discretion of the local authority?

Finally, I come to those articles of the order dealing with procedures for voting at council meetings, requisitioning council meetings, and filling casual council vacancies. This order was drawn up before the Sinn Fein presence in the council chambers, and a new situation has arisen since the district council elections. We have read that there have been difficulties and some misbehaviour. However, councils must be able to conduct their business properly. I express the hope that the situation will not reach such a point that it becomes necessary in the public interest to introduce new powers, so that the elected representatives of the people can discharge in the town halls the duties which have been entrusted to them by the electorate. With those few comments from this Bench, we give full support to the order.

Lord Hampton

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing this order concerning miscellaneous provisions for local government in the Province. I was intrigued to see that in the Official Report the second speaker in the debate in another place on 4th July is shown to have started one minute before the Minister did. An interesting arrangement.

It is fascinating to read the following in the Explanatory Note to the order. Perhaps I may remind your Lordships of it once again. It states: Part V confers powers on councils to control acupuncture, tattooing, ear-piercing and electrolysis. Part VI confers miscellaneous powers on councils to provide crematoria, to remove graffiti and fly posters, to sell advertising space on council property and spare computer capacity, to erect bus shelters and to pay sums due to deceased or mentally disordered officers of the council". All that is in addition to the licensing of sex establishments.

The cry went up in the other place that there was a need for more lengthy debate than allowed. It certainly is a wide field. However, I shall content myself with asking the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, two questions. First, how do the proposed arrangements differ from those in force on the mainland? Secondly, in the past, have councils in the Province not been able to erect bus shelters? If so, why not? Apart from that, we support the order.

The Lord Bishop of Norwich

My Lords, I ask the noble Lord the Minister to confirm one point in the very clear statement that he made. Under Part II, Article 4, on the licensing of sex establishments, did I understand the Minister to say that when a council desired to give a nil return, or not to license a sex establishment, it was perfectly entitled to do so?

I ask that only for clarification because in this country, as I know, there have been occasions when, to give one example, a very commercially-orientated sex shop briefed a competent solicitor to plead on strong grounds that it was for the health of the area that such an establishment should be granted permission. I ask the Minister to assure your Lordships that there is every opportunity for a council desiring not to license a sex establishment so not to license, thus keeping the freedom, the beauty and the loveliness of Northern Ireland unsmirched from one or two of the darker spots that are found in this lovely land of ours, England.

Lord Fitt

My Lords, there does not seem to be anything contentious in this order. It appears to me to be in the nature of a consolidation order. I notice, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, that every time there is a debate on Northern Ireland it is almost a ritual that those speaking, whether in this House or the other place, object to the time limit placed on it. I think it is a purely ritualistic objection which happens in your Lordships' Chamber and particularly in the other place. It is noticeable that when this order was debated in the other place there were only one or two parliamentary Unionist representatives present. The rest were at Portadown for an Orange protest gathering, so whatever their priorities were it was not that they had any great concern about this order.

There are only one or two aspects to which my attention has been drawn. The first is in relation to the power of councils to have graffiti removed from walls in Northern Ireland. It is well known that throughout Northern Ireland, and particularly in troubled areas—either extreme Republican or extreme Unionist areas—there is a great deal of offensive graffiti on the walls. It certainly does nothing to enhance the impressions gained by tourists, particularly when they go to Belfast or Derry and, to some extent, Newry. There is some highly offensive graffiti on the walls and I hope that all councils, whatever their political complexion, will take whatever steps they can to remove graffiti as soon as possible.

The other aspect raised in another place by the honourable Member for Belfast, North—I lived in North Belfast for many years so I know he was not exaggerating—relates to the number of illegal drinking clubs which exist in Northern Ireland. Many of these clubs are unlicensed. They are situated in either an extreme Loyalist area or an extreme Republican area and are outside the scope of RUC activity. In fact, they are run by paramilitary organisations. Either the Provisional IRA, the UDF or the UDA control these clubs.

It is bad enough to have illegal drinking clubs, but indoctrination goes on in these clubs to which young people are attracted. They become either intimidated or indoctrinated into joining one or other of the paramilitary organisations. The more that young people are recruited in this way, the more it will prolong the troubles in Northern Ireland.

7.45 p.m.

I see that for the very first time in relation to local government steps are to be taken by local authorities to license tattoo shops. We have not yet got to grips with this problem. I certainly consider it to be a problem. Many of our young people who are referred to as "punks" wear a weird mode of dress which seems to denote that they want to prove themselves rebels against convention or against the establishment and society. In the years when they are addicted to that type of activity they dress strangely and have very strange hair styles. They deliberately set out to make themselves as unattractive as they can.

I have noticed that in this process many young girls get tattooed on their arms and on other parts of their bodies. When they get over this phase of being rebels their hair will grow again, they can wash the strange colours out of their hair and they can begin to wear ordinary clothing again; but these terribly disfiguring tattoos can never be removed. I have a few tattoos which I had done when I was a young seaman. I look back and remember how great I felt, how mannish and macho I felt with a tattoo on my arm.

However, it is particularly unfortunate if young girls are tattooed. I think that local authorities in Northern Ireland, aided by the Northern Ireland Office to whatever extent may be necessary, should embark on an advertising campaign to prevent young people, particularly young girls, from being tattooed on their bodies because, although it may seem attractive at the time, they will have to live with it; and I have absolutely no doubt that they will eventually regret being tattooed.

I hope that the Minister will take my few remarks into consideration and convey my impressions to the local authorities.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, always when filling in the dinner hour, we have what I regard as extremely entertaining and crisp debates. Tonight is no exception. The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, was correct in saying that the order now before us contains a very large number of provisions. However, the noble Lord does himself a little less than justice in suggesting that perhaps the Opposition Benches—I suggest these Benches, too—need many experts. The noble Lord covers several fields himself and I pay tribute to him on the very wide range of talents which he deploys on these matters, not least tonight's order. I shall not spare your Lordships. There is another order to come and I look forward to hearing what the noble Lord says about that.

The noble Lord raised a number of queries. He first asked whether the RUC would be consulted. I understand that the order requires the district councils to send a copy of every application for an entertainment licence to the RUC. Councils have the statutory duty to take account of any recommendations made by the RUC. I understand that that also, pari passu, goes for the fire service, though I shall not go too deeply into that.

Your Lordships will appreciate that where many young people are packed into establishments known as discos—not, as I was told this morning, sex-encounter parlours—a certain amount of darkness and crowding is invited. Your Lordships may remember that there have been two or three tragedies recently. I understand that there was one in Dublin in the Starlight Lounge—I see the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, nodding assent—which caused questions to be asked. I have no doubt that the ripples from that very sad event have come as far as Belfast. Certainly the councils have a duty to take account of any recommendations which are made by the police.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, asked about the travelling people. I understand that there was a census taken and that there were approximately 112 families involved—I think the figure was around 638 persons—who had to be catered for throughout the 26 different district council areas in Northern Ireland.

The noble Lord asked me about notice to caravan dwellers, and this is covered in Article 10. If the noble Lord will check with Article 10, I think he will see that paragraph (6) goes most of the way to answering the particular question which was in his mind. He will see that it states: Where a complaint is made under this Article, a summons issued by the court requiring the person or persons to whom it is directed to appear before the court to answer to the complaint may be directed (a) to the occupant … or (b) to all occupants, without naming them.

The article goes on to show in paragraph (7) that where it is impractical to find the occupant of the caravan—if, for instance, the occupant is not in, but there is a caravan—then a notice must be posted on the site; or this procedure may be used where the owner of the caravan is not known. In any case, fair notice and fair warning must be posted on the site. As far as the travelling people are concerned, I think the noble Lord will find that point in paragraphs (6) and (7) of Article 10.

The noble Lord also asked about loans to officers. He is quite right to raise this question. I understand though that it is simply a rationalisation of the present law, which at present places this matter with the Department of Health and Social Services. This is inappropriate, since it is the Department of the Environment in Northern Ireland which has the local government responsibility for these particular loans which would be payable to council officers in the course of their duties. I understand that this is the reason, and it is now the Department of the Environment which has the responsibility for these particular matters in Northern Ireland.

The noble Lord asked about the question of casual vacancies, which I think will be found under Article 40. The noble Lord was quite correct in asking about this matter. This article is a restatement of the present law, except that previously it lay in the electoral law, in the law of the elections, and we think that this particular order is a better place to put these particular regulations. I hope that that answer covers the points raised by the noble Lord.

The noble Lord, Lord Hampton, asked about bus shelters. I understand that district councils have had powers to erect bus shelters, but this order sets it out beyond any doubt. It is in no way compulsory, but it sets out clearly that they have the power to erect bus shelters. I am afraid I cannot give the noble Lord chapter and verse of where the previous powers lay, but we hope that this is a suitable place to state the council's powers in this particular area.

The noble Lord asked me about ear piercing. I understand there is no difference—certainly there is no difference as regards ear piercing and tattooing—but certainly councils do not have to give a particular establishment a licence for ear piercing and/or acupuncture or tattooing. Councils may grant these powers as they wish, and if the council deems that ear piercing should not be carried out, it will not grant a licence. I understand that it is entirely up to the council.

The right reverend Prelate asked about sex shops. I am able to confirm what I hope I said, which was that where a council thought that it did not want sex shops in its area, it could indeed post a nil return and sex shops would not be permitted to flourish or indeed to exist in that particular council's area. I hope that is of some comfort to the right reverend Prelate, who has a great love for Northern Ireland. My advisers have given me guarded advice that there are only one or two such establishments. I understand that there were two and that one has changed ownership and it is now no longer such an establishment. There may be another one in Belfast, but I have to admit to the right reverend Prelate and to your Lordships that it has escaped my vigilance so far.

The noble Lord, Lord Fitt, mentioned tattooing. I am given to understand that tattooing a minor, a young person, is already illegal, but I understand that that is a responsibility of the Northern Ireland Office. Indeed, it comes under the category of parental control, and if youngsters are tattooed in the attractive ways that the noble Lord was suggesting, then I presume that the relevant department—it may be the Department of Health and Social Services, or perhaps the Department of Education—may concern itself with this particular matter and consult the parents.

The noble Lord, Lord Fitt, began his remarks by mentioning that these orders were something of a ritual and he mentioned that there were rituals elsewhere in Northern Ireland at about this time. He is quite right, but he will appreciate that at this time of year we have rituals in your Lordships' House, where we have to deal with various orders such as the one we are dealing with now and the one we shall be dealing with later this evening.

The noble Lord asked me about graffiti. I am advised that this is the plural of an Italian word, graffito, which will go down very well with some of the noble Lord's compatriots. Anyhow, I am given to understand that it is a plural word. If he consults Article 18, the noble Lord will see that a council would have a discretionary power to serve prior notice on the owner of a wall or premises of its intention to remove graffiti and also such things as fly posters, and to recover from the owner of the wall the cost of so removing them. But I am advised that if recovery is not appropriate, in other words if it might be quicker or if it is of inconsequential cost, the council may undertake this operation of its own accord under paragraph (1) of Article 18.

The noble Lord, Lord Fitt, had one last question about liquor licensing. I am sure that the noble Lord and your Lordships will be pleased to know that the Government are already committed to a review of the present liquor licensing laws. I have to say that it is outside the scope of this particular order and the noble Lord and any of your Lordships who take an interest in Northern Irish affairs will know that this question has more thorns, or more nails, than the legendary Indian brave man's bed. Tonight, happily, we shall not get into a review of liquor licensing or indeed the drinking habits of people in Northern Ireland, whether at this or indeed any other time of the year.

Lord Hampton

My Lords, perhaps I may come back to the noble Lord. I asked the perennial question: how do the proposed arrangements differ from those in force on the mainland? Can he say anything about that?

Lord Lyell

My Lords, when he refers to the "proposed arrangements", does the noble Lord mean the whole order? I think one of my winged messengers sent me a message about ear piercing—whether they misheard the noble Lord, I do not know—which said "No difference". I think that in many cases the arrangements that are being made in this particular order are very much akin to English and Welsh law. I recall that in a previous incarnation when I was helping my noble friend Lord Mansfield with the Scottish Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill we had matters of all kinds such as taxis and window cleaners. I think that the order before us tonight is bringing many of the activities that are regulated by district councils in Northern Ireland into line with the procedures on the mainland, though of course retaining the distinct character of Northern Ireland.

If there are grave differences, I hope that I can let the noble Lord know, but it is generally thought to be a tidying up order. We have not carried out such an operation since 1973, and I hope that that will be of some help to him.

I hope that I have covered most, if not all, of the points raised by noble Lords, and I commend the order to the House.