HL Deb 15 July 1985 vol 466 cc501-3

2.55 p.m.

Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is true, as recently reported on television, that drill and gym sessions are being curtailed as part of the detention centre training programme because the boys enjoy them.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Glenarthur)

My Lords, PE has not been curtailed, but the separate drill sessions and extra PE included in the experiment with tougher regimes in four detention centres have not been carried into the new regime introduced in all detention centres on 6th March. Many inmates came to find drill undemanding, and the exclusion of these elements leaves more time for activities such as demanding work and education. Under the new regime inmates undergo a particularly brisk and structured initial two-week programme, including extra parades and inspections, and have an average of one hour's PE each weekday throughout sentence.

Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge

My Lords, in thanking the noble Lord for his reply, which is uncharacteristically less forthcoming than usual, I should like to repeat the basis of my Question. Are these curtailments being enforced because the boys are enjoying the work? I think that it is reasonable to have a centre which is aimed at deterrence. However, I believe that it is very misguided that, when by chance one hits on something which gives the boys a chance to show themselves, to compete and to take an interest in something, one should not follow that up to do the most one can for them.

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, the noble Lord may have seen the "Panorama" programme which indicated that there was a reduction. That was not correct in all that it said. One has to balance enjoyment with the need to introduce self-pride and self-discipline. The regime which is now being pursued is effective. We believe that it will continue to be so.

Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge

My Lords, with his professional experience as a soldier the noble Lord knows very well that drill in particular is a weapon, one might almost say, to get rather sloppy and feckless people into condition to face the rest of life. Surely the idea of enjoyment is a question of achievement, and the idea of achievement is the first thing that one wants for these boys. I am not satisfied that the noble Lord has entirely exonerated the Government from appearing to say, "We cannot do this because they would enjoy it".

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, I think in my original Answer I said that it was the separate drill sessions and the extra PE that were being curtailed. I have details of the weekday routine for detention centres and I can assure the noble Lord that a great deal of PE still takes place.

Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge

My Lords, will the noble Lord agree that curtailment is still curtailment?

Lord Leatherland

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Minister—and I do so in a light-hearted mood, as a former First World War company sergeant-major—whether these boys are being taught how to form fours?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, will the noble Lord repeat the question?

Lord Leatherland

My Lords, I shall repeat my question. I ask the noble Lord the Minister—and I ask as a former First World War company sergeant-major—whether these boys are being taught how to form fours.

Lord Glenarthur

No, my Lords, they are not.

Baroness Masham of Ilton

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Minister whether he agrees that the programme in question referred to child care and showed boys learning how to look after babies? Does he agree with me that that was excellent since it could prevent child abuse and neglect in the future?

Lord Glenarthur

Yes, my Lords; I think that the noble Baroness has put her finger on an important point. While many of these people already have children when they go to the centre, they come from the sort of background which means that they would not normally have been taught the basic parentcraft which is necessary. The noble Baroness may care to know that the governor has had many letters supporting the activity that was shown.

Lord Hunt

My Lords, can the Minister say whether, in view of the enjoyment that the boys derive from drill and PE during their stay at detention centres, any encouragement is given to them to join one or other of the admirable uniformed youth organisations when they leave, and therefore to come under effective influence in a constructive way? I am thinking of the Army Cadet Force, the Air Training Corps, the Sea Cadets or the Boys' Brigade.

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, I think that the noble Lord puts his finger on an important point. It is important to try to provide the necessary resettlement for boys leaving these centres, and I shall certainly look into this, but I am under the impression that that sort of thing is taken care of.

Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge

My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Lord himself was trained in baby care—I actually was not—but I wonder whether, if the boys began to enjoy that, there would be a curtailment of their courses to!

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, in answer to the first question, no I was not. So far as the general principle of it is concerned, I think that those who were being given that instruction were not necessarily being given quite the easy time that some people imagine.