§ 11.11 a.m.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will establish a commission to increase the efficiency of the welfare state in relieving poverty, disease and squalor.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Baroness Trumpington)No, my Lords, we see no need for a commission. The outcome of the social security review was presented to Parliament last month as a Green Paper. Review work in connection with primary care and personal social services is also well advanced, and desirable reforms would have to be held up if there were now to be a commission with a general remit.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that reply. I am sorry about its tone, which is summarily to dismiss the idea of a commission. Perhaps she will acknowledge that the wish for freedom from squalor, disease and all other hateful things is shared by us all. We wish to secure this freedom. Does the noble Baroness not agree that in the field of health, housing and social services, instead of itsy-bitsy examinations now and then it is about time we established an ongoing commission which could probably save the civilised welfare state a lot of money and make it more efficient to achieve the objectives for which it was established?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, the wide-ranging nature of the noble Lord's supplementary question is such that it would take a number of Government departments a great deal of time at quite disproportionate cost even to attempt the kind of comprehensiveness invited.
§ Lord RentonMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that there is less squalor now in this country than there has ever been within the memory of most of us who are now fairly old; that further progress would not be enhanced by the appointment of a commission, which would merely divert resources and establish more bureaucratic machinery; and that it is far better that we should continue to make progress with the help of economic growth?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, I am most grateful for the remarks of my noble friend Lord Renton, with which I entirely agree. He may be interested to know that the Royal Commission on the National Health Service took three years to complete its work, at a cost of £1,570,000 at today's prices. That was only one part of the welfare state. I leave it to your Lordships to hazard a guess as to how much longer it would take and how much more it would cost for a commission on the whole of the welfare state.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, does the noble Baroness not agree that even the figures she quoted for that 424 remarkable commission that was established apropos the Health Service, much of whose work this Government have totally ignored, showed a way of saving money and making things efficient (as with housing); and that if we could only spend 20 per cent. of what we spend on trying to make nuclear weapons we could achieve this? Furthermore, does she not agree that for the good and well being of the nation it is just as important to have a commission to examine ways of ridding ourselves of these evils as it is to see that we have good defence? Does the noble Baroness not agree that there is not much sense in building 35 hospitals—
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, if I may continue with just two more words—
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, the Government have built 35 new hospitals, for which we are all grateful—
§ Lord Molloy—but they have closed 220, which is a disgrace.
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, not only has there been a massive increase in spending on the Health Service, on personal social services and on social security during the present Government's tenure, but we have also undertaken radical reviews of many aspects of the welfare state in our search to improve services and attain better care and greater benefits for people. We have a record of which we are proud and to which the Opposition have no parallel.
§ Lord GlenamaraMy Lords, with regard to the supplementary question of the noble Lord, Lord Renton, economic growth will not abolish poverty and squalor unless it percolates down to the people who created it by their skills; and it certainly is not doing so under this Government.