HL Deb 12 July 1985 vol 466 cc472-7

2.7 p.m.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I beg to move that the Historic Churches (Northern Ireland) Order 1985, a draft of which was laid before your Lordships this year, be approved.

The order which is before your Lordships is relatively brief and its purpose is to introduce a scheme of grant-aid to listed churches. It would also bring listed churches within the system of listed building control from a day to be appointed.

Your Lordships will know that in Great Britain the scheme for grant aid to listed churches has been in existence on an experimental basis since 1976. At present it is extended to 1986. The proposals before us this afternoon would introduce a formal scheme of grant aid to listed churches in Northern Ireland along similar lines to the model we have in Great Britain.

The scheme stems from strong representations made to the Department of the Environment in Northern Ireland by the churches in Northern Ireland, occasioned by rising costs in the upkeep of listed church buildings. Following those representations, my honourable friend Mr. Chris Patten announced on 5th July 1983 that a suitable scheme of grant aid would be introduced. The scheme was drawn up following consultations with all interested parties, including the various churches involved.

I hope that your Lordships will allow me to go through the provisions of the order. They include, first, the making of grants or loans towards expenditure incurred in the repair and maintenance of listed churches currently in ecclesiastical use. Secondly, the expansion of listed building control to listed churches in current use from a day to be appointed. Thirdly, the appointment of committees of the Historic Buildings Council to advise the Department of the Environment (Northern Ireland) on the operation of the scheme.

Your Lordships will also wish to know about the department's proposals for the administration of the grant aid scheme. The proposals are relatively straight- forward and number six in all. First, the initial annual budget will be the sum of £150,000. Secondly, grant aid will be fixed at 33⅓ per cent. of eligible costs, subject to a limit of £25,000 to any particular scheme in a single year. Thirdly, grant aid will be restricted to repair and maintenance of the external fabric of church buildings and to associated works, such as the treatment of dry and damp rot. Such works as repairing and maintaining bells, stained glass windows and internal furnishings will not be included.

The fourth proposal is that the denominational aspect will not be taken into consideration in any way. Fifthly, claims will be dealt with in the order in which they are received. I hope that noble Lords will not be repeating the comment that minor officials in the department will be taking a lucky dip as to which churches will be fortunate enough to receive a grant. Applications will be dealt with, I hope expeditiously, in the order in which they are received. The sixth and final proposal is that the operation of the scheme will be carefully monitored and may be reviewed, if necessary, in the light of the experience which we obtain.

In summary, it is not the Government's immediate intention to bring churches in Northern Ireland within listed building control. Such a step would be taken only after the most careful consideration and consultation. What the order does is to provide the opportunity for listed churches to obtain historic buildings grant aid which until now has not been possible. This is a fairly simple and brief order. I look forward to hearing whatever points your Lordships may wish to raise on this order, which I commend to the House. My Lords, I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House an 22nd May be approved.—(Lord Lyell.)

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, with this order we sail into a religious haven, we hope. However, the amount of the fund allotted under the order is very small. That must be obvious to all of us. As demand is likely to be great, the funds are likely to be inadequate. Even though the money will be spent on a religious building, it will not work miracles. We do not therefore expect results overnight.

The order refers to grants or loans. The first question I should like to put to the noble Lord the Minister is this: is the total figure of £150,000 per annum available for both grants and loans, or will the loans be drawn from an additional fund? Will such loans be interest-free, and over what maximum period of time will they be repayable?

Some concern has been expressed in the House of Commons about the failure to provide in the order a satisfactory procedure for processing the applications. The Minister has said that applications will be dealt with on a first come, first served basis. That basis is likely to be difficult. One hopes that with the passage of time the department will give further consideration to that aspect of the order and will develop broad guidelines that will be seen to be fair by all applicants.

Again, in the other place the Government were pressed to make part of the funds available for repairs and refurbishment of fittings inside the churches as well as to the church buildings. When I think of nonconformist meeting places in Wales—and Wales is probably the most densely chapelled province in Britain—I see very clearly the need to preserve the interior fittings as well as the external fabric. On the other hand, as the funds are very modest, one hopes that the parishioners will continue to see their way clear to being responsible for the maintenance of indoor fixtures and fittings.

We welcome the order even though the sum is modest and even though it will not, therefore bring great relief to the churches. But it is important that the state acknowledges the principle of financial support for historic churches. That is significant. To be fair to the Government, I do not think that one can fairly attack them when they recognise the principle even though they cannot provide the funds necessary. Experience shows that once there is a heading in the estimates for a certain item it is usually there to stay. One's hope must be that, given an improved economic climate, Governments in future years will top up the fund so that this order can play a more substantial role in the life of the Province. With those few remarks it gives one pleasure to support the order.

2.15 p.m.

Lord Beaumont of Whitley

My Lords, we on these Benches also welcome the general tenor of the order and note, too, the inadequacy of the money which has been pledged. We understand some of the reasons why more money has not been given, but I must add that I would have welcomed from the Government Front Bench this afternoon an acknowledgment that it is inadquate as well as not merely a hope but a firm intention that the money will be increased as soon as possible. We had an acknowledgment of that inadequacy in another place and I think I am right in saying that, unless I nodded off, we did not have that acknowledgment this afternoon. I hope that before the debate is over we shall have that acknowledgment from the Government. It is extremely important.

I go along completely with the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, in saying that it is important to get the heading on the estimates and that from there on one can hope that having got a foot into the doorway, one will be able to insert more and more of one's body until one is firmly inside. Nevertheless, I think that it is important that the public in Northern Ireland, and the churches in particular, should have the feeling that the Government are well aware that what they are doing at the moment, although helpful, is not helpful enough and ought to be increased in the near future.

The Irish Council of Churches, writing to the Northern Ireland Assembly on this matter on 25th January 1985—a copy of this letter is reproduced in the report of the Northern Ireland Assembly—said: Church representatives are opposed to the abolition of the ecclesiastical exemption from listed building consent as it would place a particular burden on those Churches who will not benefit from grant aid (some 80 per cent.) but will still have to face the full rigours of listed building consent. Grant aid has been made available in Great Britain for historic churches without the abolition of the ecclesiastical exemption. Churches argue that already internal controls exist for the vetting of alterations and extensions to Church buildings and that Churches themselves will be particularly sensitive to any change in the character or quality of their buildings. Churches feel that at the very least there should be no abolition of the ecclesiastical exemption in Northern Ireland before it is abolished in the rest of the United Kingdom. The Churches involved in the discussion with the Department of the Environment therefore welcome the Department's undertakings not to introduce listed building consent at present (even though preparing the legislative ground work in the order) and that it will consult with the Churches before doing so". There is a basic reservation about the direction in which the Government are going. Probably there is a feeling that it is inevitable and there is no great resistance, but there is some reservation. I believe that we should have a statement from the Government about what is the likely timetable. We are told, and the Northern Ireland churches have been told, that the Government will not go ahead with the general extension of listing until there is an overall step forward in Great Britain. What is the timetable for that? We know that the churches have been asked to produce a scheme on the matter, but what do the Government foresee as the timetable and the future of these particular orders? They must have something in mind or they would not have gone so far as to include the possibility of the general listing in this particular order that we have before us. I am in no way opposing what is happening, but I think we should be kept closely informed of what the Government see as their timetable and their programme, and I hope that they will take rather more opportunity in replying to this debate than they did in opening it to tell us what they think is going to happen.

Lord Fitt

My Lords, this is one of the non-controversial orders that has come before your Lordships' House in relation to Northern Ireland. The noble Lord, Lord Lyell, will be acutely aware that churches and those who attend them, and those who go to them on marches and for commemoration services, can be very controversial in Northern Ireland. I know that when this order becomes known in Northern Ireland there will be many religious sections who will want to have their churches listed as historic buildings of some kind. It may be that some of them will be genuine and some of them less genuine, but I know that there will be quite a number of churches which will want to come in under the scope of this legislation.

I am also very fully aware of the position regarding a number of Protestant churches. I think of Carlisle Circus in Northern Ireland where I formerly lived, where three churches of different Protestant denominations have closed down within the past 10 years. I do not know what was the reason for it, but it seemed to be that people were failing to attend services at those churches. I only hope that they had found some other church where they could go on the Sabbath. I should not like to think that they had been stopped altogether from going to church. There is one church that springs particularly to my mind in relation to the debates which have been taking place in both Houses over the past few weeks, and that is Drumcree parish church outside Portadown. This is where the Orange march has been taking place, as we have heard, for the past 170 years and latterly, over the past 50 years, in circumstances of great trouble-making and provocation.

When replying to the earlier debate, the Minister said that there were 3,000 Orangemen having a sit-down protest in Portadown this afternoon because they were prevented from taking this traditional route to Drumcree church. I only hope that the weather over there is as good as the weather is over here—

Lord Lyell

It is cold and wet, my Lords.

Lord Fitt

—because some of those old Orangemen who must be taking part in this sit-down protest are as old and decrepit as I am and I should not like to think that they were sitting down for very long at Portadown on damp ground this afternoon. It would be no good for them as regards their future marches.

So far as Drumcree church is concerned, if it is listed—and I have no doubt that there will be great claims to have it listed—would it not be possible for it to be taken down stone by stone and shifted into a more suitable part of Portadown? Such things have been done before. I am sure that if the Minister needed any labour to carry out this task, he would find that it would be all too readily available from the Obin Street part of Portadown. Men would very willingly and lovingly carry every stick, stone and statue from this Drumcree church to place it right in the centre of Portadown, and that would render it unnecessary for 3,000 of those old fellows to engage in a protest such as they are making this afternoon. I hope the Minister will take that into consideration.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I should like to thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate. I shall certainly take into account the suggestions made by the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, in his concluding remarks. However, we must remember that an afternoon like this in your Lordships' House is a family occasion and perhaps we had better not go into all the things that he gets up to and the exercise that he may take of an afternoon.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, was kind enough to warn me about at least one of the points he would raise—the question of funds. I am able to assure him and all your Lordships that the 150,000 covers loans and grants. He will be interested to note that loans will be available on conditions in line with those set by the Public Works Loan Board. They will generally be over a period of up to 10 years with a rate of interest depending upon the duration. Currently the rate is in the region of 13 per cent. In view of the interest rates and the limited budget, the department would not anticipate an appreciable demand for loans, especially when grant aid is available.

The noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, raised a number of points. We are grateful to him for his interest in the order. He asked us to acknowledge the paucity of funds. I think that my honourable friend in another place used the term, "a small crock of gold". I have given the assurance to the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, that the scheme will be kept under careful review, and that includes the funds available.

The noble Lord, Lord Beaumont, also inquired about listing. Ecclesiastical exemption would be removed only after the most careful consideration and consultation with churches and certainly not before abolition in Great Britain. He may be interested to know that we hope the completion of listing powers in Northern Ireland will be in the fairly near future, but the department's resources are under considerable pressure. I stress that it is prepared to carry out a review of those churches which on present listing would not necessarily be eligible for grant aid.

However, that requires the advice of a committee of the Historic Buildings Council to be appointed under Article 5 of the proposed order and the provision of additional architectural resources. I am afraid that that cannot be undertaken immediately. I understand that it is currently proposed to offer grant aid at least at the outset only to churches of architectural importance of grade A and grade B-plus. The noble Lord, Lord Fitt, raised the question of Drumcree. The noble Lord is not in the Chamber, but I understand that it is grade B and so would not be eligible for grant aid at the outset.

The noble Lord remarked on what he called the Orange sit-down. I understood it was a peaceful protest, but he has considerably more experience of these matters than I do. When I left the Province this morning it was considerably cooler and damper than it is here. The advice given to everybody going to and taking part in the marches was to bring a raincoat. I share his concern that anybody who sits down might suffer from a painful complaint, but perhaps not. Certainly I understand that the weather is not as favourable as it might be. We shall take note of what he said about Drumcree, but I do not invite him to spend his afternoons in a dismantling operation. Indeed, I hope he will not.

We are grateful to your Lordships for the concern expressed about the order. I commend it to the House.

On Question, Motion agreed to.