Football Teams: Overseas Ban (Hansard, 5 July 1985)

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Elton)
My Lords, as I told the noble Lord in my reply on 27th June, it would not be appropriate for the Government to become involved in this issue.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord the Minister for that reply, but I regret the negative approach that the Government have adopted in this situation. Is the noble Lord the Minister aware that quite recently I have been in personal contact with some of our finest post-war ambassadors for football, such as Sir Matt Busby, Mr. Joe Mercer and Mr. John Charles, who are respected all over the world and who all think that the FIFA worldwide ban is totally unnecessary? May I further ask the Minister whether he is aware that FIFA will be reconsidering this ban on 10th July? I believe that some form of support from the Government would help to rebuild what a lot of us now consider a completely spurious loss of confidence.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I note with interest the contacts which the noble Lord has had with people in the sport. As I say, we believe it is a matter for the sport itself to consider.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, does the noble Lord accept that the Government interfered at the beginning? The Government made some very strong statements about the proposed ban, and in fact the Prime Minister herself was very voluble on this question. Does he agree with me that it was not the teams which needed banning but the spectators? Perhaps the Government can do something about that.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I can only repeat that we think that the question of how the sport should be conducted is primarily a matter for the people who organise that sport to decide. If the law is broken then of course it is a matter for the Government to pronounce on how the law should be enforced.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, does the Minister not agree that when most blanket bans are applied they contain anomalies? Will the noble Lord the Minister bear in mind, for instance, the plight of my own local football club, Tottenham Hotspur—of course I say that with a Tyneside accent. Will the noble Lord the Minister acknowledge that for clubs such as Spurs and many others the income and prestige which accrue to them and their country from their overseas tours can be very seriously affected by such a ban? For instance, a club such as Spurs, when it has an ordinary home game employs 200 policemen and 300 stewards, and such clubs are therefore eminently respected. Will the noble Lord the Minister further agree that there is 1399 a responsibility on the Government, if not directly then certainly indirectly, to try to ensure that clubs with such good reputations are protected? The innocent are entitled to justice as well as justice being meted out to offenders.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, misbehaviour of the sort that we have seen on a number of occasions by football supporters abroad brings no prestige to any club whose fans support it in that way. There is a pronouncement by the international body which runs the whole of this sport which has banned English club teams from playing abroad as a result of the misbehaviour of some of those fans. In my view it is for the sport itself and those in this country who support it to prove to that body by their actions and conduct that it is time to remove the ban. It is not for the Government to urge that body to do so against its judgment.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there can be no difference of opinion as to the desired behaviour of spectators at foreign matches? Is it not a fact that the Government declared their welcome for the decision, and they cannot disown their responsibility? The ban covers not only famous clubs, such as the one my noble friend referred to, but also small clubs such as my own, Leyton Orient, which has just been dropped into the Fourth Division. It has played abroad with no spectators whatever leaving the country with it, and that ban is also applying to it.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the international governing bodies of the sport have no doubt taken the steps that they consider to be most appropriate and effective. The Government, for their part, recognise the importance of particularly sensitive matches. We believe that it is not for us to protect the interests of clubs which now add their distinction to the Fourth Division—such as those of the noble Lord—as an individual class, but to leave those matters to the sport itself to regulate.

§ Lord Plant
My Lords, many chairmen of football clubs have said that much of the hooliganism has been inspired by the National Front and other groups. Have the Government anything to say about those allegations, and if so what are they going to do about it?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, your Lordships will know that there is a inquiry into the causes of football violence in this country and also into the particular incidents which gave rise to the ban. The latter is being conducted by the authorities in the country concerned and your Lordships would not expect me to anticipate it. When we know what the facts are, of course we shall be able to make a judgment on them.

§ Lord Brougham and Vaux
My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that the violence would not have arisen had the Football Association and the Football League been much tougher after the riots that we had in Chelsea earlier in the season?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I think that I ought not to be drawn into an analysis of causes when I have just said that we should await the outcome of the report.

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords, will the Government continue to give full weight (as I am sure they will) to the bad effect that it would have if the British Government were seen to intervene with the international governing bodies of football to gain the withdrawal or the shortening of the judgment that they have already come to?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I think that I have said that four or possibly five times so far.