§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will elaborate their reply to Baroness Burton of Coventry's Starred Question on 6th June (col. 843), so that the House may be informed of any progress made on European Community Consumer Affairs as a result of the meeting of the permanent representatives following consultation with their Governments.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Lucas of Chilworth)My Lords, agreement was reached in COREPER on 26th June on almost all the outstanding points in the proposed European Community directive on product liability. The proposed directive is now being considered by individual member states. An explanatory memorandum on the latest proposal was submitted on 1st July to the House of Lords Select Committee on the European Community and the House of Commons Select Committee on European Legislation. The Scrutiny Committee on European Legislation in another place has recommended the proposal for further consideration in the other place.
§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, is the Minister as regretful as I am that he has not been able to give a more positive reply to today's Question, especially in view of the high expectations engendered? Can he tell the House what obstacles remain to agreement and whether the Government have any further reservations about the text?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, indeed I also share the regrets of the noble Baroness at this position. There are no identifiable difficulties. One will have to wait for consideration by the Scrutiny Committee in the other place to see what emerges there. However, so far there have been no other members states which have raised any objections to the proposals now on the table.
§ Lord BroxbourneMy Lords, may I offer my respectful congratulations on the speed with which action has been taken on the directive on product liability, which was under active consideration in the Legal Committee of the European Parliament only seven or eight years ago?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I am delighted to accept any congratulations from my noble friends behind me on whatever occasion.
Lord Bruce of DoningtonMy Lords, in his reply to the noble Baroness, Lady Burton, on 6th June, the noble Lord gave an indication that he thought the Ministers would be meeting a fortnight after 14th June; which implies, of course, 28th June. Can the noble Lord give us a firm indication as to when the next meeting of Ministers on this subject will take place?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I should like to be able to give that information to the noble Lord—indeed, I should like to know myself—but until the consideration by the Scrutiny Committee in the other place is completed I cannot say when the matter will again come before the Council of Ministers.
§ Lord Allen of AbbeydaleMy Lords, I should like to express my disappointment, which I am sure the Minister shares, that he is not able to give us more positive news after all this time. May I take the opportunity of asking whether the noble Lord recalls that on 6th June he maintained that, if we in this country allowed the defence of development risks, particularly in the context of drugs, and the other countries did not, as still seems rather likely, there was no risk of this country being used by the drug companies as a place for experiment? Can he elaborate on why he felt able to come to that conclusion and why he ruled out the possibility of treating drugs differently from other products, as I believe the Germans do?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, is quite correct in reminding the House that the Germans do, in fact, treat drugs separately. While I recognise that they may be seen as perhaps different to other manufactured products, I believe that the system of strict liability which is in the current proposals more than adequately deals with this type of product. We do not foresee any risk of this country being used, as the noble Lord suggests, for experimental purposes in that regard.
§ Lord Allen of AbbeydaleMy Lords, I am sorry to press the noble Lord, but can he say why? We shall be in the position that this will be the one country where the drug companies can operate in the knowledge that if things go wrong they will not be under any liability, whereas in other countries they may well be. Is this not a somewhat uncomfortable situation?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, in the light of the proposals before the Community, we do not feel that this is an unhappy position to be in, in so far as we were looking towards a completely harmonised system. This has not proved practical over the 10 years of negotiation. We believe that a partially harmonised system is better than no system at all.
§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, while going one better than the noble Lord, Lord Broxbourne—
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, the noble Lord has not dealt with the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, who referred to the disadvantages to this country if action is not taken by Her Majesty's Government to place us on the same footing as our partners in the Community. Will the 1305 noble Lord be good enough to answer that question specifically and, if he is not certain of the reply, that would be something we should all understand? Will the noble Lord talk to his right honourable friend and bring a full reply to the House in due course?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I shall be quite happy to discuss this matter with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, in the hope that I shall be able to expand a little further on the brief reply that I gave the noble Lord.
§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, I apologise to the Leader of the Opposition. I did not see him get up. May I perhaps improve on the statement made by the noble Lord, Lord Broxbourne, in that I believe that general discussions on product liability started some 10 years ago. As it seems obvious to the House that the Minister himself shares our general disappointment today, may we take it that he will do everything in his power to help us in putting down a Question which might secure a definitive answer to this problem before the House rises for the Summer Recess?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, the noble Baroness is quite right. The commission first proposed the directive in 1976. The matter was debated in part of the Pearson Report in 1978, and again in 1979 and 1980 by both Houses. If there is any news that I can impart to your Lordships before the Summer Recess, I shall be pleased to advise the noble Baroness, in order that we can find the opportunity for me to do so.