Business (Hansard, 4 July 1985)

§ Lord Denham
My Lords, at a convenient moment after 3.30 p.m. this afternoon, my noble friend Lord Swinton will, with the leave of the House, repeat in the form of a Statement the Answer to a Private Notice Question in another place on the teachers' dispute.
It may also be for the convenience of the House if I make a statement about the arrangements which have been made through the usual channels for our consideration of the Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol etc.) Bill, which is expected to reach your Lordships' House from another place this afternoon.
It is proposed that the Second Reading and remaining stages will be taken next Thursday, 11th July. The necessary Motion to dispense with Standing Orders will be taken next Tuesday, 9th July. In these circumstances, the Public Bill Office will be prepared to accept amendments to the Bill from tomorrow onwards.

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the Statement he has just made—

Noble Lords
Order!

§ Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede
My Lords, before the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, makes his point, perhaps I may ask the noble Lord, Lord Denham, whether he has any statement to make about the order of business this afternoon.

§ Lord Denham
Yes, my Lords. The order of business for this afternoon will be as shown on the Order Paper. At one time it was hoped that if agreement could be reached on the rest of the business for the Sexual Offences Bill, which failed to reach the end of the proceedings after its Third Reading last night, to such an extent that the remaining business would not take very much of your Lordships' time, then it might have been possible to take it after the Education (Corporal Punishment) Bill. I understand that at the moment such agreement has not proved possible and so the order of business will remain as it appears on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, is the noble Lord, Lord Denham, aware that the statement he has made, that all the stages of the Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol etc.) Bill will be taken in a single day, is deeply objectionable to a number of us? To adopt that procedure would be quite wrong. Is the noble Lord aware that many of us regard it as entirely wrong that new criminal offences should be put on the statute book without proper parliamentary scrutiny? Is the noble Lord aware also that a number of us will be opposing the business Motion next Tuesday in the most emphatic terms?

§ Lord Denham
My Lords, I understand that the initial consultations took place through the usual channels in another place.

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
No, my Lords.

§ Lord Denham
My Lords, I understand also that all parties agreed that this Bill should be considered in the way I have described.

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
No, my Lords.

§ Lord Denham
My Lords, consultations have also taken place through the usual channels here. If the noble Lord so wishes, he will be able to contest the Motion next Tuesday. That would be an unusual event, and I hope that he will have second thoughts before pursuing that course of action.

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that it is also unusual to put down such a Motion on such a Bill? Is he aware that one of the last occasions on which that was done was in 1911, for the Official Secrets Act? After a precedent of that kind, is it not desirable to give this House at least two days to debate a matter of such considerable importance?
Is the noble Lord not aware that most of us recognise that it is desirable to have this Bill on the statute book before the next football season begins, but that that should not prevent the House giving the Bill detailed consideration, as is our duty as a revising Chamber?

§ Lord Denham
My Lords, we can of course revert to this matter when the business Motion is on the Order Paper next Tuesday. If the noble Lord feels as strongly as he appears to feel about this matter, the correct action for him to take will be to get in touch with his business managers—

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
I have done so, my Lords.

§ Lord Denham
—and for them to get in touch with my noble friend the Leader of the House and myself. It is not right that business procedure of this nature should be argued across the Floor of the House by people who are not members of the usual channels.

Noble Lords
Oh!

§ Lord Tordoff
My Lords, with all due respect, and taking into account what was said yesterday, and also speaking as one who has not long been a Member of this House and who does not pretend to be knowledgeable about its procedure, I should have thought that the noble Lord's statement was mistaken. It was clearly spelt out to the House yesterday that all Peers are equal in this House. Although the usual channels are a useful means of communicating, they are not the only means for the House to make up its mind on such matters as this.

§ Lord Denham
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, is absolutely right. An opportunity for the House to express its views, if that is necessary, will present itself next Tuesday. However, I do not believe that such argument should take place as part of a business statement. It will he much better if our business can be arranged outside the Chamber. Any noble Lord is entitled to object, and he can then complain to the House. But if agreement can be reached outside, it saves the time of the House.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, many of us accept that we should work through the usual channels, but when else can we object except when the business statement is first made?

§ Lord Denham
My Lords, if, by leave of the House, I may speak once again, we are probably getting a little outside the rules of order now. It is quite normal for the Government of the day to make a business statement. It is quite normal—not very usual, but it does happen—for other parties or for individual members of other parties to object, in which case we usually go away and discuss the matter.
There is plenty of time to discuss this matter before next Tuesday. Of course it will be possible to object next Tuesday, and to object in private before then. That is normally done, and I hope that we may observe the usual procedures in this House. It is not a case of the usual channels acting in some Machiavellian way, but of arranging matters for the benefit of the House so as not to take up its time with matters which can be more properly dealt with outside.