NHS: Sale of Surplus Property (Hansard, 3 July 1985)

§ Baroness Elliot of Harwood
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, between 1st April 1979 and 31st March 1984 sales of surplus National Health Service land and property in England amounted to some 4,000 acres, realising £94 million. There is much to be done, but we are generally satisfied with the progress being made.

§ Baroness Elliot of Harwood
My Lords, may I ask w hat efforts are being made to improve the efficient management of the National Health Service estate? The money, I take it, will be used for improvements of all kinds in the service.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, my noble friend is quite right: the money will go to the appropriate health authority. With regard to the efficient management of the estate, we are making increasing efforts to improve this. A computerised management information system is being developed to present all managers with data needed for cost-effective management of the estate. This system is the first of its kind in the world, and has already been adopted by the majority of health authorities as well as being sold here and overseas for both commercial and health work.

§ Baroness Robson of Kiddington
My Lords, would the noble Baroness agree that the greatest incentive that can be given to health authorities to look at what properties they might have for sale depends largely on the percentage of the proceeds that goes back to the health authorities? Is the noble Baroness able to tell us at this moment what percentage of the £94 million has been returned to the health authorities?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, as I said to my noble friend, the proceeds do go to the appropriate health authority, so presumably the £94 million has been received between the appropriate health authorities. Receipts from the disposal of hospitals for the mentally ill or the mentally handicapped are used to develop new services consistent with our policy of Care in the Community.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, may we approach this problem not from the point of view of money but from the point of view of people? Is the noble Minister aware that in some districts hospitals are being closed down for financial reasons, resulting in considerable hardship to the people of that district?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, certainly not. We are talking about the disposal of surplus property. There is evidence that as the delivery of health care changes—for instance, the progressive rundown of large psychiatric institutions—much surplus property can be identified.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, I am sure the whole House will welcome the information that the noble Baroness has given, but when she refers to the "appropriate" health authority, will she say whether she means that it will go to the regional health authority or to the district health authority, or will it in some way be divided between the two?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, sometimes one, sometimes the other.

§ Lord Kilmarnock
My Lords, can the noble Baroness say what further sales are envisaged of large old psychiatric hospitals? Can she further give us an assurance that whatever is realised will be reinvested in facilities for the elderly, the mentally ill and the mentally handicapped in the community?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I thought I had already answered the latter part of that question, but with regard to particular instances I cannot answer. If the noble Lord has any particular instance in mind perhaps he will let me know.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, I am extremely sorry, but the reply of the noble Baroness "sometimes one, sometimes the other" is not perhaps as illuminating as it might be, because it relates, does it not, to the question put by the noble Baroness, Lady Robson, on the matter of incentives? Would she not agree that if a district health authority knows that it will receive more money for patient care if it sells some unnecessary property then it has a much greater incentive? What does the noble Baroness actually mean? Will she be more specific about comme ci and comme ca?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I should love to answer that in French! Our policy nationally is based on the principle that receipts from the disposal of surplus property should return to the district health authority involved, where they can be used to improve or expand existing services or to initiate new developments; but sometimes the receipts will go appropriately to the regional health authority as opposed to the district health authority.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, as a supplementary to that answer, may I ask the noble Minister who decides whether they can be used in that manner?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, it depends whether the sale of property and the proceeds come within the appropriate scope of a district health authority or a regional health authority.

§ Baroness Robson of Kiddington
My Lords, will the noble Baroness confirm that when they are handed to a regional health authority, which she said occasionally happened, it does not affect the original capital allocation to that health authority and there is not a deduction made?

§ Baroness Trumpington
No, my Lords.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether she would write to me about the proposal that the Forest Hospital at Buckhurst Hill in Essex is about to be closed down? That hospital is used by many local people, and it would be a very great pity if it were closed.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I have no information immediately available to give the noble Lord an answer on that point. The noble Lord may wish to raise the matter with the regional chairman.

Lord Wallace of Coslany
My Lords, is the noble Baroness able to give me a clear and positive assurance that in point of fact the extra monies allocated to the appropriate health authority will not be used as an excuse to reduce their financial allocation?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I think I can give the noble Lord that assurance.