§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress has been made concerning the 4th meeting of the EEC Consumer Affairs Ministers and the business outstanding since their Answer on 29th November last (Official Report, col. 1012); and whether they will make a statement about this and the present position of the three directives on product liability, doorstep, selling and the price indications of foodstuffs and non-food products.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Lucas of Chilworth)My Lords, since the third meeting of European Community Consumer Affairs Ministers which took place last June, there have been no councils devoted solely to consumer affairs. On 18th December, however, a Council of Ministers considered jointly the internal market and consumer affairs. At that meeting the Commission made a statement about the development of the Community's consumer protection policy over the last few years. There was no specific discussion of the outstanding business although the hope was expressed that progress on the product liability and doorstep selling draft directives could be achieved in 1985.
§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, hope springs eternal: I quite understand that. However, does the Minister's reply mean that there are not to be quarterly meetings of the EEC consumer Ministers in the future? Am I not correct in saying that the last one was held on 5th June while the next, it is anticipated, will be held on 11th February? Can the noble Lord the Minister confirm that? If correct, does it not mean that eight months have elapsed between the two?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I am sure the noble Baroness's arithmetic is absolutely correct. As the noble Baroness is aware, the decision to hold or not to hold particular Council of Ministers meetings lies in the hands of the presidency. The Italians, as she will know, have recently taken the chair. Although no firm arrangements have been made for a consumer affairs council, I understand that consumer affairs items may again be put on the agenda of the internal market discussions on 11th February.
§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, may I ask the Minister one further question? Does he realise that I pay him the credit of thinking that he, too, would like to get a move on in regard to these matters? If I were to put down a Question at some suitable date after 11th February, does the Minister think that he could be more specific in his reply?—because these three directives have been waiting since the mid-1970s.
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness. She is certainly right. The Government recorded their wish to see a Consumer Affairs Council as long ago as 1981. She will recognise, of course, that this matter is not entirely in our hands. We are in favour of the directives, particularly in the two areas that the noble Baroness mentioned. We shall certainly be doing our utmost to pursue these to a successful conclusion during this year.
§ Lord BroxbourneMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the directives on product liability and doorstep selling were under active and detailed consideration by the legal committee of the European Parliament more than five years ago? Does this not indicate an unduly leisurely approach to legislation? Would not the institutions of the Community—Council, Commission and Parliament—be well advised to give their attention to the practical questions of improving and expediting the machinery of legislation rather than to less immediate and more esoteric questions such as, for example, the draft Spinelli Treaty on European Union?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I hear what my noble friend says. I do not think that I can agree with his general criticism. What is an undue delay to some people may not be so to others. However, my noble friend will know that, since the previous Commission completed its term, Mr. Stanley Clinton Davis has taken over responsibility for consumer protection and some consumer affairs. It is possible that he will make a statement of policy at the meeting of the Internal Market and Consumer Affairs Council on 11th February. I look forward, as indeed I am sure my noble friend does, to that statement of intent.
§ Lord Allen of AbbeydaleMy Lords, as regards product liability, would it not be more realistic to conclude, after all this time, that there is simply no prospect whatever of getting agreement on a worthwhile directive? Should it be concluded that this particular exercise be wound up, would the Government mind all that much, particularly given their extraordinary attitude on the state of the art defence?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, we consider that such a defence as that to which the noble Lord has referred is essential in order to protect manufacturers from liability for totally unforeseeable risks. We do not believe that there is no prospect of getting agreement with our partners. Until we are totally satisfied that that prospect has disappeared, we are most reluctant to take any other course of action.
§ Lord Allen of AbbeydaleMy Lords, are years likely to elapse before the Government come to that conclusion?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, that is a very fair question to which I do not have an answer.
§ Baroness Gardner of ParkesMy Lords, would my noble friend not agree that in some cases it is better not to make progress, in particular on the unit pricing of foodstuffs, which our Euro-Committee here is finding would not be to the consumers' advantage? Is it not better that something unfavourable is not implemented?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, on unit pricing, progress is being made, albeit slowly. There are continuing discussions and, indeed, I was involved in some about 10 days ago. A number of areas have to be examined. It is only right and fair that progress should be made slowly.