§ 2.48 p.m.
Lord Paget of NorthamptonMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they went to war with the Argentine Republic, and if not, why not.
§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)My Lords, neither side recognised the existence of a state of war. Our inherent right of self-defence, as recognised by Article 51 of the charter of the United Nations, was a sufficient basis for our actions.
Lord Paget of NorthamptonOh! my Lords, so there never was an Argentine war. Can the noble Baroness say who will break the news to Mrs. Thatcher? I mean, after Oxford, this will be a terrible shock. She did so enjoy her little war.
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, the Answer to the Question is as I have given it to the noble Lord, Lord Paget. I am surprised that he would demean himself by asking his further supplementary questions.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenhrosMy Lords, would not the noble Baroness agree that we should be concentrating on the possibilities of peace and not on the bitterness of conflict? Will she say whether she read the remarks of President Alfonsin in New Delhi yesterday? Can she further say what steps are being taken to secure a resumption of talks with the Argentine as a matter of urgency in order to seek a settlement that is acceptable to both sides?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I entirely agree with the first point that the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, has made—that we should now be looking to the future. As Her Majesty's Government have made plain on a number of occasions, we would welcome better bilateral and more normal relations with Argentina, but we are not prepared to discuss the issue of sovereignty over the Falkland Islands.
§ The Earl of LauderdaleMy Lords, can my noble friend say whether there is yet any sign of Argentina declaring that the state of hostilities is at an end?
§ Baroness YoungNo, my Lords. The position on this matter immediately following the end of the war is that they expressly ruled out declaring a definitive cessation of hostilities on the grounds that this would give legal status to our position in the Falklands.
§ Lord GladwynMy Lords, may I repeat my question of the other day, to the effect that it might be advisable for the Government not to resume negotiations on the question of sovereignty, which is a very general and debatable question, but to agree to discuss the political future of the Falklands?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I do not think that I can give the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, an answer other than the one which I gave him to the same question he asked the other day.
§ Lord AveburyMy Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that the whole of the civilised world condemns the obduracy of the British Government in refusing to discuss the issue of sovereignty, which is is an essential prerequisite to the full restoration of peace? Does not the noble Baroness recognise that this is placing on the shoulders of the British people a financial burden which is almost comparable with the iniquitous Trident project?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, we have taken several initiatives to achieve more normal bilateral relations with Argentina, and we remain ready to do this. We have made quite plain our views on the matter of sovereignty, and, as I think I said on an earlier occasion, just as we have welcomed the return of democracy in Argentina and the right of the Argentinian people to vote for a government of their own choice, so we believe that a similar right should be exercised by those living in the Falkland Islands.
§ The Earl of LauderdaleMy Lords, would not my noble friend agree that the charge of obduracy is better directed at Argentina than it is at this Government?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, we do not accept that we have been intransigent over these matters. We have sought, over extensive negotiations in the earlier part of 1984, leading up to the negotiations in Berne in July, means of establishing better bilateral relations with Argentina. That continues to be our policy. It is our wish that we should have normal relations.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, would not the noble Baroness be prepared to accept that the issue of sovereignty ought not to stop negotiations continuing, particularly in the field of commerce and trade? When these matters really get under way they could perhaps make a contribution to a much better attitude and spirit which will resolve the other issue, which is now blocking things altogether.
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, we should like to have normal trade relations with Argentina: but, as the 648 Argentine Government made plain at Berne, they were not prepared to discuss other issues without addressing the question of sovereignty.
Lord Paget of NorthamptonMy Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that the difficulty about a war that never was is that there are no logical means of stopping it?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, the position on a declaration of war is as I stated in the first Answer to the Question. I think that it would be a much more profitable exercise to look now to the future, and that is why Her Majesty's Government are seeking ways to have more normal relations with Argentina.
Lord MorrisMy Lords, does my noble friend believe that there can be anybody other than the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, who would not believe that "political future" is sovereignty, written in another way?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I think that we have to be quite clear that her Majesty's Government are not prepared to negotiate sovereignty, however it is described.