HL Deb 17 January 1985 vol 458 cc1069-70
Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, as consumer councils in the water industry are not included in the Written Answer concerning consultation on tariffs charges given to the Baroness Burton of Coventry on 30th October last (col. 808), they will add these councils to those having a statutory right to be consulted.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, water authorities' consumer consultative committees were not included in the reply of my noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth because these committees are not technically statutory bodies. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment does not consider that measures beyond those contained in Section 7 of the Water Act 1983 are required.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, does the Minister realise that his reply is most extraordinary, in view of the facts? May I ask him whether these committees have not a statutory basis, as they were set up under Section 7 of the Water Act 1983? May I further ask him whether he has in his brief a copy of the Secretary of State for the Environment's Guidelines, Water Authorities and the Representation of' Consumers' Interests? May I ask him further whether he is aware that there is a sentence in those guidelines that these committees—and I shall quote it exactly— should be able to consider fundamental questions including general charging and financial policies"?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, although the water authorities have a statutory duty to have consumer representatives' committees looking after their affairs, the committees themselves are not statutory. The consumer consultative committees' constitutions charge the authorities to consult them in advance of decisions on proposals with significant implications for their consumers. This they have done and are continuing to do.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, is the Minister denying the guidelines issued by his own Secretary of State? May I ask him whether he will say directly whether or not he supports, or is against, the sentence issued by the Secretary of State which says that these committees should be able to consider fundamental questions including general charging and financial policies"?

Lord Skelmersdale

No, my Lords, I am not doing anything of the sort. I repeat that the consumer consultative committees have been consulted by the water authorities, are being consulted, and will continue to be consulted.

Baroness Nicol

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the views of the industrial consumers as expressed by the CBI in November 1984 in which they quote the extra costs which will be falling on industry this year as a result of increased water charges; for example, £47,000 for a paper-making company and £45,000 for a pharmaceutical company? This is based on a 12 per cent. rise, which is modest. Is the Minister able to explain to the House why we should not consider this to be a tax-gathering exercise, one particularly without any democratic control?

Lord Skelmersdale

Yes, my Lords, I am aware of the CBI representations of late last year. I will tell the noble Baroness that the position is quite simple. Water delivery and collection has a cost and this cost is reflected in a charge to the user.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he really will make matters clear, because until I read Hansard tomorrow it seems to me that he contradicted himself? Did I not understand him to say at the beginning that the consultative consumer committees would not necessarily be discussing financial charges? If so and in any case, would he give me a direct answer as to whether he accepts that these committees should be able to consider, fundamental questions including general charging and financial policies"? If that is the case, why may they not be added to those industries which have this right?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Lucas answered the Question which the noble Baroness put down for Written Answer in October last. He answered it correctly. So far as her quote goes, yes, of course, I agree and, as I have said I think now three times, the consumer consultative committees are consulted, have been consulted, and will continue to be consulted on all these matters.

Baroness Nicol

My Lords, will the Minister answer the point about whether or not he considers this to be a tax-gathering exercise? We have already seen tax gathering on electricity and on gas. Are we now seeing it on water? He really has not answered this point. Will he comment on it?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I am afraid that I disagree; I think that I have answered it. It is not a tax-gathering exercise.

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