HL Deb 16 January 1985 vol 458 cc964-5

2.46 p.m.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the Government financial subvention, per capita of population, to England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, subventions by the Exchequer are calculated only for Northern Ireland. However, figures are available for identifiable public expenditure in all four territories. The latest available are for the financial year 1982–83. The figures per capita are as follows: England, £1,539; Northern Ireland, £2,335; Scotland, £1,990; and, Wales, £1,726.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord the Minister for that detailed reply because the Question is a difficult one to answer. May I ask the Minister whether he agrees that those figures indicate that the per capita spending now in Northern Ireland is 50 per cent. higher on essential social services than in the English regions? While nobody wants to demur about the necessity for high spending in Northern Ireland, in that unhappy place, is the Minister not aware that, in certain regions of England, unemployment and deprivation is now reaching the Northern Ireland dimensions? May I ask the Minister to plead with the Government to reverse the cuts that they are already implementing in those areas?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, the calculation of public expenditure per capita in the territories (if I may use that word) is based on an aggregation of expenditure on a wide range of programmes whose levels are determined by a wide variety of economic and social factors. I think that the noble Lord would be best to address questions on individual programmes direct to the spending departments concerned.

Lord Glenamara

My Lords, can the noble Lord say what the figure is for the North-East of England where unemployment has now reached crisis proportions? There in some communities up to 50 per cent. of the male population are unemployed and the unemployment figure is higher than anywhere else in Great Britain.

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, no. The figures that I gave are the figures for the territories of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales; and those are the only ones that are available.

Lord Paget of Northampton

My Lords, does this not boil down to the fact that the poor old English once again are paying for the peripheral provinces?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, there are special circumstances which relate to Northern Ireland of which the noble Lord will be aware.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, may I finally ask the Minister whether he is aware that the figures he produced are very similar to those that I received as a result of research in the Library? They show that the per capita figure that he gave is based on spending mainly on the broad spectrum of the social services, such as housing, education, the DHSS and the National Health Service in each area. I think that they have nothing to do with the industrial grants; and certainly these figures are not remotely concerned with the defence programme for Northern Ireland and the Army there. Comparing like with like, all that I am pleading is for the Government to reconsider the cuts they are imposing in areas of England which now have the same amount of deprivation as in Northern Ireland.

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, the subvention consists of five items: the grant-in-aid of the United Kingdom Consolidated Fund to the Northern Ireland fund; the Northern Ireland Office expenditure on law and order; expenditure by the Northern Ireland courts service; expenditure by the Ministry of Agriculture in Northern Ireland; and contribution from the GB National Insurance Fund to top up its Northern Ireland counterpart. Three of these items—the first, the second last and the last—are unique to Northern Ireland.