Freight Transport (Hansard, 26 February 1985)

§ Lord Gainford
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, it has been the policy of this and previous Governments that industry should be free from intervention to choose the most 835 suitable and cost-effective freight transport. At the same time, it has been recognised that heavy flows of lorry traffic on unsuitable roads can be damaging to communities. For this reason the Government have made full use of their grant powers under the Freight Facilities Scheme to encourage the use of rail and inland water transport where it makes good environmental sense. So far 158 grants totalling £51 million have been approved. This has had the effect of removing more than 20 million tonnes of freight a year from unsuitable roads since the scheme was introduced in 1975.

§ Lord Gainford
My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for that Answer. If the transfer of freight from roads to water transport is successful, are the authorities aware that there may be more canal mileage in London than there is in the City of Venice? As regards the existing canals, will there be opportunities for more employment? I am thinking of maintenance and the reactivation of other canals.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I am afraid that I do not have comparative figures as regards the length of the canals in London and Venice. However, there is potential for the development of canals. Indeed, that has recently been exemplified by what has taken place on the Sheffield and South Yorkshire Navigation Canal which has been developed and has attracted grants from the European Regional Development Fund and the local authority. Her Majesty's Government have approved borrowing from the National Loan Fund on the normal investment criteria and, following the improvements to the canal, a grant under Section 36 was later awarded to one of the users of the new facilities.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, is not the Minister rather complacent about the figure which he gave? I believe that he mentioned 158 schemes. Is it not a fact that, since the passing of the 1981 Act regarding the freight facilities on waterways, only two schemes have been approved? Does that indicate a lack of publicity? Is there any scheme of direct marketing in order to encourage firms to move into these freight facilities?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the noble Lord is almost right. The grants as regards waterways have, indeed, got off to a slow start. In fact, only three schemes have been approved. It is up to industry to make more use of the scheme. I quite take the point that perhaps we should do more to advertise the scheme.

§ Lord Harvington
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend to what extent the Government have improved the inland waterways for use by commercial undertakings during the last two or three years? My information seems to be that they have not done very much.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, as I said I think in my original Answer, we do not give any financial assistance to favour any of the freight sectors, all of which are expected to operate commercially and in competition. Investment in the British Waterways 836 Board needs to meet Government investment criteria including a minimum 5 per cent. real rate of return. Other navigation authorities or the private sector do not, of course, require Government approval but will need to meet their usual commercial investment criteria.

§ Lord Nugent of Guildford
My Lords, before we leave the question of the waterways, will my noble friend tell us what percentage of freight, nationally, travels on the waterways? Is it less than 1 per cent? If that is so, would he therefore be very careful about how much public money he pours into the waterways? Is he aware that most of our waterways are far too small to carry freight traffic and that they can only do so to a very limited extent? Would it not be far better to put some extra money into coastal shipping, which carries quite a deal of freight, rather than into the waterways themselves?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I do not have with me a figure for the percentage of freight which is carried by the waterways. If I can find such a figure I shall certainly write to my noble friend about it. As to the question of extending the grant to coastal shipping, I believe that that matter goes rather beyond the scope of the Question. However, I can say that we are considering proposals from the General Council of British Shipping along those lines and that we shall be responding soon. I should point out, however, that even if the percentage of goods conveyed by waterways were very small, there is still potential for savings as regards the environment to be made in this area. The recent grant which we made of £61,000 to a company in Rotherham will result in the removal of up to 10,000 lorry movements a year.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, will the Minister agree that, in addition to the environmental damage, we are in the terrible dilemma of knowing full well that the carriage of materials by heavy freight lorries is essential to the economy but at the same time it causes grave social nuisance to very many people? Successive Governments have looked at what can be done to our existing canal waterways. Therefore, should it not be a matter of top priority to carry out a thorough investigation so that we can make full use of our canals? As the noble Lord, Lord Gainford, has said, there are more canals in London than there are in Vienna—

Noble Lords
Oh!

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I should have said Venice. Moreover, there is a bigger river in London than there is in Vienna; and neither is full. That being the case, could we not resolve the two problems, as the noble Lord, Lord Gainford, has pointed out—and I am referring now to the social damage and the environmental damage—and make at the same time a magnificent contribution to our economy and full use of reorganised canal systems?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I think that I have covered most of the points which the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, raised. However, I should point out that the scheme also covers rail transport and in that field 837 there has been quite a considerable take-up; of 91 schemes since 1979, 18 have been in the last year. Since 1979 we have spent £34 million on this.