§ 3.13 p.m.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the NATO exercise WINTEX-CIMEX will have any practical implications for civil liberties and human rights in the regions affected.
§ Lord TrefgarneCertainly not, my Lords. Although details of the exercise are classified, I can say that it is designed to test military command and control procedures and is firmly based on NATO's deterrence strategy. It is thus helping to preserve the civil liberties and human rights which we enjoy today.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyBut, my Lords, is the noble Minister not aware that the exercise includes aspects of what is being called civilian control? Will he confirm that a list of some 25,000 people has been drawn up, a list consisting of those whom the Prime Minister referred to as "the enemy within"? Is the Minister aware that I shall take it gravely amiss if I am not on the list?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I shall have to see what I can do for the noble Lord.
§ Lord Boston of FavershamMy Lords, I do not invite the Minister to include me in that, anyway. Can he confirm that local authorities are not involved in this exercise? If that is the case, can he say why they are not being involved, in view of the fact that according to Mr. Stanley, in another place last year, the intention of the exercise is to cover the whole spectrum of a crisis and it is somewhat difficult to see why local authorities should not be involved in view of the civil defence aspects of this?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I cannot go into the details of the scenario of this exercise, as I have said. However, as I have already explained, the exercise is designed to test the full spectrum of NATO's procedures and plans for crisis management in times of tension and war. I am certain that it will do that.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that he appears to have contradicted 674 himself in his answers? So far as his first Answer was concerned he appeared to suggest that civilians were not at all concerned in this matter. However, regarding his second answer, he did not deny that a list of potential arrestees had been drawn up.
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I do not want to contribute to the noble Lord's fertile imagination, if he will forgive me for not doing that. However, I can tell him that this exercise has been very carefully planned and there will be no question of civilian participation along the lines that the noble Lord suggests.