Heriot-Watt University (Hansard, 19 February 1985)

The Earl of Selkirk
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, the University Grants Committee's decision was influenced by the fact that estimated future demand for pharmacists could be met by pharmacy departments at other higher education institutions, its assessment of the academic quality and viability of Heriot-Watt's pharmacy department, and the cost of moving it to a new site. The decision was based on very detailed consideration of university pharmacy provision made over two years by a panel set up by the Committee to look at studies allied to medicine.

The Earl of Selkirk
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether this really is a wise decision? This department has maintained 100 per cent. steady employment for all its pupils in a profession which demands the highest degree of dedication, efficiency and reliability, upon which all doctors and patients depend.

§ The Earl of Swinton
Yes, my Lords, I believe that this decision was the right one, for the reasons I have given. As I said in my original Answer, the panel was considering specifically the question of future demand.

§ Lord Ross of Marnock
My Lords, is the Minister aware that in a letter I have here the chairman of the UGC states that the actual reason for the closure is the continuing cuts in the real income of universities since 1979? In respect of Heriot-Watt, is the noble Earl aware that there is student demand and that there is a professional need in Scotland for this pharmacy department? Is he further aware that that demand cannot properly be met by extending the number of places available in Nottingham University or in Chelsea?
So far as Scotland is concerned, secondary education is different, the university entrance qualifications are different, and the degree courses are different. Will the Minister think again about this?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I am not sure from which letter the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, was quoting. The noble Lord mentioned cuts; it is for the UGC to decide upon grant allocations to individual universities, but I understand that the university will be allowed to redeploy the resources which are being saved here. So far as Scotland is concerned, its needs were obviously taken into consideration, as was the overall need for graduate pharmacists in Great Britain. The intake to universities recommended by the UGC panel, together with those for the public sector in England by the NAB, and the increased intake by the Robert Gordon Institute in Aberdeen, 473 will provide Scotland—which has approximately 9 per cent. of the population of Great Britain—with about 12 per cent. of both the total and university pharmacy places. So Scotland is still doing pretty well.

§ Lord Ross of Marnock
My Lords, the noble Earl was inquiring about the letter which I mentioned. It was from the chairman, Sir Peter Swinnerton-Dyer, FRS, to the principal of Heriot-Watt University. I will gladly provide the noble Earl with a copy.

§ Baroness Elliot of Harwood
My Lords, does the noble Earl realise that this matter came before the University Grants Committee three years ago, and they agreed then that the department should not be closed. What makes them want to close it now?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, as I understand it, they have always taken this view. In fact, the panel first began looking at this matter in 1981—more than three years ago. They have reconsidered it because of the concern surrounding Heriot-Watt, but have stayed with their original decision.

The Earl of Selkirk
My Lords, I regret that my noble friend cannot give a more convincing reply. Does he not appreciate that on a global basis Edinburgh is a world centre of medical excellence and is readily recognised as such? In some measure the Government are deliberately reducing the nature of that excellence. Will he please think again about this matter? My noble friend will correct me if necessary, but I believe that there are three major pharmaceutical departments—in Edinburgh, Sunderland and London—and this particular department is one of the leading ones in the country.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, my noble friend is fairly adamant about this. However, I must repeat that one of the reasons that the University Grants Committee gave was that it was worried about the academic quality and viability of Heriot-Watt's pharmaceutical department.

Noble Lords
Order!

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I was being quite fair in saying that; I do not know why there are cries of "Order". That reason is stated in a paper that has been published; it is perfectly fair. Since the University Grants Committee was founded in 1919 it has been a fundamental principle that judgments relating to relative quality and the allocation of resources between individual institutions were matters for peer review by a body composed mainly of academics rather than matters for decision by Ministers and civil servants. That principle has been upheld by successive Governments. My noble friend asked me to look at the matter again, and I shall certainly draw my right honourable friend's attention to it, but I give my noble friend very little hope. I should be less than honest with the House if I said anything else. As I said in reply to my noble friend Lady Elliot of Harwood, this has been going on since 1981 and a decision has been taken.

§ Lord Gainford
My Lords, is there any danger that any other departments in Heriot-Watt University may be closed? I ask this because for a short time I was a student there.

§ The Earl of Swinton
No, my Lords. As I said, I think the money that is saved from this department will, in fact, be redeployed in other departments, especially those of a technological nature.

§ Lord Ross of Marnock
My Lords, will the Minister send a copy of this exchange to the Secretary of State for Scotland, from whom we expect action?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I shall do that, though I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, with his distinguished career in government, knows that universities in Scotland come under the Department of Education and Science. However, I shall certainly send a copy to anyone he wishes.

The Earl of Selkirk
My Lords, if the noble Earl really wants to deal with the question of quality, will he be good enough to consult that well-known organisation Boots Cash Chemists?

A noble Lord
Answer that one!

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I will answer that one. I do not think it matters who I consult. This matter was considered by a very distinguished panel and it came to a judgment. I am sure it consulted everyone in sight.