Television Licence Fee (Hansard, 18 February 1985)

§ Viscount Melville
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. May I just say one thing before the noble Lord rises to reply? I do not wish to make a correction here, but where in the Question I refer to "those of pensionable age", I really mean the infirm, the housebound and the handicapped.

§ The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Elton)
My Lords, my Answer to the Question, which I believe is still relevant, is as follows. There is a long-standing concession for retired people in residential homes and some sheltered housing schemes, and this has recently been extended slightly to include disabled people living in the same kinds of accommodation. There is also a modest reduction in the licence fee for registered blind persons, but the Government have no proposals for introducing concessionary rates for all those who are infirm, handicapped or of pensionable age.

§ Viscount Melville
My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for that reply. However, is he aware that many senior citizens in the United Kingdom to whom I have referred get very little pleasure out of life, through no fault of their own, and have to eke out their savings on a small pension and supplementary benefits such as they are? Is he further aware that even a token reduction in the television licence fee would be an immense and humane gesture from the Government to the old and the under-privileged for whom so often the only contact with the outside world is through the confines of the medium of television?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the Government are committed to maintaining the real value of pensions and related long-term benefits for retired and disabled people, and we believe in giving benefits in cash rather than in kind.

§ Viscount Melville
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his helpful answer. May I use the Question and my noble friend's helpful reply to ask whether he would agree with me that in order to make my proposals credible a means test would have in itself to be fair and also be seen to be fair? I should like the guidance of my noble friend the Minister as to whether or not this rather poignant proposal—

Noble Lords
Reading!

§ Viscount Melville
—should or would be implemented by a means test when dealing with cases of a low income bracket, or by any national or local authority or body?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, as I said in my earlier reply, we are committed to maintaining the value of the help which we give. We believe that we should do so not by giving specific help for individual purposes, but by allowing people in receipt of help to decide how to use it themselves.

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, while I see the Government's problem with pensions, surely in regard to the infirm and handicapped it would be possible to provide that their doctors could prescribe a TV. It is so important in the lives of people who have nothing else to do. It really is a matter of health, and I should have thought that this is an instance where doctors might be of assistance.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I am not at all sure that that suggestion would be welcome to doctors, who would have to apply criteria which it would be extremely difficult to devise.

§ Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, is the Minister aware that in the past many social services committees of local authorities have considered this question and in most cases have decided against such a scheme because there is no way in which one can really determine who is a pensionable person living entirely alone and so not attracting benefit for other people? It is really not practical to consider this for persons of pensionable age.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, if it were possible to identify single pensioners living alone, then I understand that it would cost about £95 million a year in lost revenue to give them a complete concession.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, since virtually everyone owns a television, have the Government considered whether it would not be in their interests, and in the interests of everybody else, to abolish the licence fee and pay the BBC from general taxation, thus saving the considerable cost of collection of licence fees?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, it is generally understood that it is important that the BBC should be independent of government interference and direction. To make the BBC dependent upon direct funding from taxes would breach that principle. In any case, that is not at present in view.

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, may I ask the Minister something that is distantly related to the original Question? I do not know whether this matter is the responsibility of the Government or the BBC, but may I ask this? Has the question of unpaid licence fees been under consideration recently; and can the Government say approximately how much is lost each year through non-payment of television licence fees?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, that supplementary is so much further from the Question even than I have already been tempted that I cannot answer it.

§ Viscount Melville
My Lords, may I put one last and final question?

Noble Lords
No!

§ Lord Nugent of Guildford
My Lords, on a point of order, is my noble friend aware that it is quite out of order to read material for questions? He should present his points orally and in the form of a question.

§ Viscount Melville
My Lords, my last question to my noble friend the Minister is this. Is he aware that so far as blind registered people are concerned, they have to pay £45.25 and yet receive no benefit from what they themselves cannot see?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, it is worth pointing out to my noble friend that, presumably, the blind person does not need colour television and would therefore be content with a black and white set at a licence cost of £15. I believe there is abatement of £1.25 of that fee.