§ 2.45 p.m.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what action is being taken to reduce the nuisance caused by canine faeces on pavements in built-up areas.
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has agreed that a pilot project should be undertaken to test the effectiveness of a new form of by-law. This would require a person in charge of a dog to remove any faeces deposited on pavements and in parks and recreation grounds. If the pilot project is successful, my right honourable friend would be prepared to recommend a model by-law for use by other local authorities.
Baroness VickersMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that interesting and useful reply. May I ask her whether there are any local authorities in Great Britain which are dealing with this at the present time on the lines followed in New York, which have proved so successful?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, I am so sorry, I did not quite catch the second part of my noble friend's question.
Baroness VickersMy Lords, can my noble friend say whether there are any local authorities in this country which are undertaking projects similar to those that have been so successful in New York?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, in answer to my noble friend Lady Vickers, the authorities which will take part in the new project are Rochester-upon-Medway city council, Gosport borough council, North-West Leicestershire council and the London borough of Barking and Dagenham. The New York law, on which we are basing this new pilot project, provides for civil proceedings with a maximum penalty of 100 dollars, and it requires persons in charge of dogs to carry with them the 185 means—commonly known as "pooper-scoopers"—for cleaning up the faeces. I am placing in the Library a copy of the Bill requiring New York dog owners to clean up after their pets. The Bill also applies to Buffalo.
§ Baroness NicolMy Lords, it is very hard to follow that. Is the Minister aware that, in spite of the mirth which we have just all enjoyed, this is a very serious question and that there are serious worries caused to members of the public by the problem? Will the Minister assure the House that the discussions which are at present going on with local government about the means of dog control will be supported by the Government, and that when eventually the licence fees are increased the money that is available to local authorities will not count against the rate support grant?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness that it is a very serious question, and it is perfectly disgusting for the general public. Your Lordships will realise that the dog licensing system is wide of the original Question, but part of the Government's proposals for reforming the existing system encourages owners to look after their pets and make sure that they do not cause this insanitary nuisance.
§ Lord SomersMy Lords, would the noble Baroness agree that rather a lot of ridiculous fuss is being made over this subject? If you keep a dog at all, by the rules of nature it is bound to relieve itself occasionally. It is absurd to say that you have to train your dog not to do this. How on earth are you going to?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, I am afraid that I do not agree with the noble Lord. If all dog owners behaved responsibly and with consideration for their fellow citizens there would be no need for by-laws.
§ Lord Wilson of LangsideMy Lords, to reinforce the point that this is no laughing matter, may I ask the noble Baroness two questions? First of all, is she aware that the city of Edinburgh, which in the latter part of the 18th century was known as the Athens of the North, by the middle of the 20th century had become known as the city of the sacred dog? Secondly, would she not agree that perhaps the most sensible, imaginative and courageous thing that this Government could now do with this problem is in the coming Budget to impose a swingeing tax on dogs and say, "Damn the doggy vote", which of course has been the single biggest factor preventing this issue from being grappled with in the past 20 years?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, the question of the noble and learned Lord also is wide of the Question on the Order Paper. If I may say so, I have progressed, if that is the right word, from the Anatomy Bill, on to intimate bodily searches, and so to today. I have tried not to put my foot in it. May I suggest that we let sleeping dogs lie and pass on to the next business?
§ Viscount MountgarretMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend if she is aware that it is estimated that approximately 4 million tonnes of faeces are deposited 186 regularly every year in built-up areas? Before model by-laws or legislation are instituted, might we not have a problem about deciding where to put all this stuff?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, local authorities concerned with the model for the by-law are at present working out exactly how they are going to cope with this.