School Morning Assembly (Hansard, 7 February 1985)

§ Baroness Elliot of Harwood
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, the Government do not collect information in this form, but my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science has made it clear that he looks to local education authorities and schools to ensure that the requirements of the Education Act 1944 on collective worship are met. The 1944 Act does not extend to Scotland or Northern Ireland, where separate legislation applies.

§ Baroness Elliot of Harwood
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. May I ask whether there is any intention to change the law in any way?

§ The Earl of Swinton
No, my Lords. The religious education provisions of the 1944 Act, including the requirement for daily collective worship by all pupils in maintained schools except those excused at the request of their parents, are part of the settlement between the Churches and the state which underpinned that Act. The Government have at present no intention to propose any changes in those provisions.

The Lord Bishop of Norwich
My Lords, I thank the noble Earl the Minister for that heartening answer. May I ask him whether he noted the BBC "Panorama" statistics in relation to a recent survey of 4,000 schools in which 33 per cent. appeared not to have "collective worship", as the Act puts it, which presumably means prayers and Bible readings? Are the Government anxious about this? As an example, is the noble Earl aware that in Norfolk, which I know well, despite a first-rate agreed religious syllabus the Norfolk education authority has not appointed a religious adviser in the schools even though we have a lot going on in our schools which has church connections? Does the noble Earl feel anxiety about this breakdown of regular worship in schools, having particularly in mind that verse from the Psalms that we have just heard: One generation shall praise thy works to another, and shall declare thy mighty acts"?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, there may well be schools in different parts of the country where the letter of the law on collective worship is not obeyed. We are anxious about this and we look to local education authorities and to the schools themselves to ensure that daily worship is in fact provided. Indeed, any parent or any member of the public—and I would say any clergyman, or perhaps any right reverend Prelate—who is unhappy about what is provided in a particular school should not hesitate to take up the matter with the school and, if necessary, with the local education authority, and if he or she gets no satisfaction ultimately with my right honourable friend.
So far as Norfolk is concerned, I was aware of this because the right reverend Prelate told me himself the other day. I understand that the local education authority does not at present have an adviser on religious education. This is, of course, a matter entirely for the local education authority, but the Government have made clear the importance which they attach to religious education in our schools.

§ Baroness Phillips
My Lords, bearing in mind that the Minister will appreciate that his right honourable friend sends directives to local education authorities, may we ask that he should encourage schools to continue or, indeed to re-institute the assembly, because it is sad that in a Christian democracy we seem to have denied our children one part of the educational system to which we were all accustomed?

§ The Earl of Swinton
Yes, my Lords. I can only repeat what I said to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich, and that is that anyone who has any reason to understand that this is not being carried on in a school is quite entitled to go and complain to that school, and if they get no satisfaction at the school then to go to the LEA; and if they still get no satisfaction my right honourable friend will be only too happy to take up the matter for them.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, would it not be wise to leave the matter in the hands of the governors and the head (which I think is something the Secretary of State would like to do) for them to make a decision about what happens in this way, considering the very different populations of the schools 40 years after the passing of the 1944 Act?

§ The Earl of Swinton
Yes, my Lords. Obviously the first responsibility lies with the head and with the governors of the school, but if they are actively breaking the law then it is up to anybody to complain about it.

§ Viscount Eccles
My Lords, would my noble friend agree that at the time of the enactment of the 1944 Act we thought that there would be a teacher in every school who could take an act of worship in the morning and believe what he or she was saying? At that time, too, there was none of these enormous secondary comprehensive schools which make it extremely difficult to get the children together in the morning. Would the Government consider having some form of high-powered inquiry as to whether we should not change that part of an Act which honestly is not now possible in practice in all the schools?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. At the time the Act was passed I was seven years old, so I was not aware of it myself, but I understand that they made a good job of wording it. If I may read the relevant section, it says: the school day in every county school and in every voluntary school shall begin with collective worship on the part of all pupils in attendance at the school, and the arrangements made therefor shall provide for a single act of worship attended by all such pupils unless, in the opinion of the local education authority or, in the case of a voluntary school, of the managers or governors thereof, the school premises are such as to make it impracticable to assemble them for that purpose. I understand that many of the larger comprehensive schools get round this by having several acts of worship instead of one collective one.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that Her Majesty's inspectors connive at this widespread breach of the law? Could he not persuade or instruct the inspectors to include a sentence when they report on a school saying whether or not this is done?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I am quite sure that if the inspectors see that something is wrong at a school they will draw attention to it.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, is it right or proper on a subject which is important to many of us to leave enforcement of these statutory provisions to such a large degree to private initiative?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I think if we had armies of people wandering around asking at every school whether the act of worship was being carried out we should probably be accused of being a fascist state, and it would cost an awful lot of money. I should have thought that this was something the general public and parents of children at schools could look after very well.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, is my noble friend the Minister aware that that was not the purpose of my question?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, it is difficult enough answering questions, but to have to try to work out what their purpose is as well is beyond me.