HL Deb 06 February 1985 vol 459 cc1063-5

3.2 p.m.

Lord Beloff

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government how many "sabbatical officers" of student unions in universities and polytechnics are in receipt of grants and what is the total cost to public funds.

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, student union officers on sabbatical leave are not eligible for mandatory grants. They are paid by their student unions out of public funds allocated to the unions by the institutions concerned. There are no official statistics about the number of sabbatical officers in receipt of such payments or about the amounts in question. Material published by the student unions indicates, however, that university student unions have an average of four sabbatical officers each.

Lord Beloff

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply, but is it not rather extraordinary that there are no precise figures for both universities and polytechnics? This question has been talked about for a number of years. Is it not the case that even if the money comes out of student union funds, it is still ultimately public money, which is reaching students who, by definition, are not engaged in study?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, I think that there are a number of statistics which are not known and that is one of them.

Baroness Lockwood

My Lords, is it not a fact that the major part of the activities of the student unions are concerned with the provision of welfare and social facilities, along the lines which the noble Lord, Lord Grimond, suggested in an earlier question? That being so, does it not mean that those officers on sabbatical leave are having the opportunity to develop very important business and managerial initiatives? Is that not to be welcomed by the Benches opposite?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, I would go some way, at least, towards agreeing with what the noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood, has said. I think that the proper work of student unions is in organising student services and facilities, and that this may well require the attention of full-time officers. However, whether there is a need for so many officers as there appear to be in order to manage unions efficiently is a question which the Government will raise in their consultations with higher education interests, to which I referred in an earlier Question.

The Earl of Lauderdale

My Lords, would my noble friend not agree that the figure of an average of four such officers per university gives the impression that there are not very many? Would he not agree that, in fact, the total number is about 300?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, these figures, I think, may not be very accurate, anyway, because they were collected by the Students' Association at Edinburgh University on behalf of the Student Union Senior Officials' Conference in 1979–80 and so they are slightly out of date. I understand that at the time the top end of the range—Manchester University (including UMIST)—had nine such officers in 1980, but 85 per cent. of universities had five or fewer and 60 per cent., four or fewer.

Lord Mackie of Benshie

My Lords, would the noble Earl take account of what the noble Baroness behind me has said: that these students have not only to run their business end of the catering of the union and everything else, but also have to administer the funds for every form of society—athletic and otherwise—and this provides very valuable business experience? In Dundee University, of which I had the honour to be rector for three years, there were only two sabbaticals. They worked extraordinarily hard and, I am sure, were cheaper than employing salaried people from outside.

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord is right and that the Scots, as always, show that they are fairly canny in these matters. I think that it is fair to say that some of these students on sabbatical gain very good experience. Some, perhaps, gain slightly less salubrious experience.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour

My Lords, if the noble Earl is agreeing that the original purpose in publicly funding student unions was so that students should learn democracy, does he really persist in his opinion that the failure to produce figures in regard to their accounts is unimportant?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, I am not quite sure that I understand what my noble friend is getting at. Obviously, these accounts exist, but they are not collected centrally.

Lord Kilmarnock

My Lords, can the noble Earl say whether there is any student union or any student officers at the University College of Buckingham, with which the noble Lord, Lord Beloff, is closely associated?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, I do not know the answer to that supplementary question. I shall have to write to the noble Lord.

The Lord President of the Council (Viscount Whitelaw)

My Lords, I think that we have had enough of students for one afternoon. They are extremely important and the Questions are very important, indeed; but we have had two of them. I think that we should now pass on to the next Question.