Poundswick High School (Hansard, 18 December 1985)

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science has considered all the available information about the difficulties at Poundswick and has concluded that there is insufficient basis for his intervention under the very limited powers given to him by Section 68 of the Education Act 1944. Nevertheless, he is most concerned about the prolonged disruption to the education of many pupils and wrote to the Manchester education authority on 6th December asking how they propose to bring the disruption to an end.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for that reply. Bearing in mind that the priority in this dispute is to restore to nearly a thousand pupils the normal education facilities to which they are entitled—I understand that they have been denied these facilities for three months now—may I ask whether a time limit was placed on the reply sought from the Manchester education authority? If the reply was negative, can the Minister tell us now so that alternative action can be taken to restore these education facilities?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, the original date for reply expired yesterday but I understand that talks have been going on all week between the different parties including of course ACAS. I have just heard but only over the telephone that discussions today have achieved some some measure of understanding. That is good news but I am afraid that I do not have any details. My right honourable friend still awaits a report from the authority.

§ Baroness Phillips
My Lords, is the Minister aware that this is an example of why the teachers are so demoralised? Here they had the support of their own governors, their own people and their own authority. Yet their own education authority would not support them. I can give the Minister many such examples. There must be some way in which the Government can intervene to make sure that those people who are doing a very difficult job have the proper support of the people who are there to give it.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I do not want to say too much at this stage because I understand that the talks are continuing and that there is some hope. Schools are governed in accordance with their articles of government. The articles of Poundswick school give the head teacher the power to suspend pupils where he or she considers that there is adequate cause. But the 802 matter must be reported to the governors who must then consult with the local education authority with whom the final decision about exclusion rests.

The Lord Bishop of Manchester
My Lords, I am sure that your Lordships will be very grateful to hear this piece of potentially good news from the noble Earl the Minister. As he is probably aware, the Poundswick school is in the diocese of Manchester for which I have a responsibility. My colleague the Dean of Manchester Cathedral has been one of those engaged in trying to find some solution to this tragic and difficult dispute which has caused a great deal of disruption to education there. I should like to ask the noble Earl the Minister whether he will accept that this is, as has already been suggested, an indication of low morale among many teachers which goes much wider than Poundswick? One reason for low morale is the problem of discipline in secondary schools and the need for continued research into ways of dealing most fairly and adequately with disruptive pupils. Some of this may cost money in the nature of special units and visits to homes. I should like to be assured that there will be an effort to take on board whatever lessons there are to be learned from this sad dispute at Poundswick.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, just like the right reverend Prelate, I deplore vandalism in our schools and elsewhere. It might be fair to say that the Manchester authority set on record its own abhorrence of the kind of thing which happened here, but on careful examination of the case they concluded that permanent exclusion of the five boys would have been an excessive punishment. This is what gave rise to the dispute.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, will the noble Earl the Minister accept that there is an intermediate solution between permanent exclusion and leaving the boys responsible in the same school? The normal procedure surely is that the pupils who are responsible in these cases are expelled or suspended from the particular school but are taken up by other schools in the authority.

§ The Earl of Swinton
Yes, my Lords, this is absolutely true but this is very much a matter for the local authority, and perhaps unfortunately Manchester did not take this view itself.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, as I said before, I am extremely grateful to the noble Earl for the manner in which he has dealt with the Question. But is he not aware that the whole situation in schools in Manchester at present is very fragile? It is almost at the point where some of the teachers are talking about a withdrawal of educational services right across the board. I have no desire to embarrass or impinge on any negotiations that will be taking place, but I must ask the Minister to take note of the fact that if this issue is not resolved quickly—and it may need the intervention of the Secretary of State to do so—some of us fear for the education services in Manchester with which we have been historically proud to be associated.

§ The Earl of Swinton
Yes, my Lords, I understand the strength of feeling of the noble Lord, Lord Dean. Like him, I can only hope that the negotiations prove favourable. I do not think there is any possibility of my right honourable friend intervening any further because he simply does not have the powers. The only power he has to intervene in local matters under Section 99 of the Education Act 1944 is if he is satisfied that the local education authority is in default of a statutory duty; or under Section 68 of that Act, if he is satisfied that an authority has acted unreasonably. The fact that an authority has acted unreasonably has been interpreted by the courts as meaning in a way which no reasonable authority could have acted having due regard to their statutory duties.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I shall be very brief. Within the meaning of the 1944 Act, do not the needs of the pupils transcend the views of the authority where education is concerned?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I am no lawyer. That is what the 1944 Act says. I understand that my right honourable friend has taken very high legal advice about this matter and this is what he is advised.