Church of Scientology: Charitable Status (Hansard, 17 December 1985)

§ Lord Sandys
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Glenarthur)
My Lords, I understand that the Church of Scientology has not applied for charitable status.

§ Lord Sandys
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for according me that Answer. Is my noble friend aware of any application which has been made by the Church of Scientology?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, if there is any application for charitable status, it is a matter which should be looked at extremely carefully by the Charity Commissioners. It is a matter for them and not for the Government.

§ Lord Denning
My Lords, is the Minister aware that this so-called church has been severely criticised by the judges, and particularly by a judge in the Family Division? Is he also aware that this and other religious cults do great harm to our society, particularly in regard to the relationships between parents and child? Is it not high time that all of them were deprived of charitable status? How is the Attorney-General's action proceeding in regard to that very point in connection with one of these cults?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I am certainly aware of the feeling which the noble and learned Lord expresses; but, as I said to my noble friend Lord Sandys, the achievement of charitable status is a matter for the Charity Commissioners and not for the Government. So far as proscribing this organisation is concerned, that again is difficult because such organisations would have to be unlawful and yet there is nothing unlawful about them. On the matter of the appeal to which the noble and learned Lord referred, I understand that a date has been set for the hearing in February 1986.

§ Lord Denning
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that it is not merely the parties concerned or the Charity Commissioners? The Attorney-General and the Government are concerned in this matter and they ought to take it up.

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, yes, I understand the concern which the noble and learned Lord expresses. However, there is nothing essentially illegal involved, and what one must do in this case is limited by, what can be achieved without impinging in any way on what is not illegal.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, while the noble Lord the Minister is obviously right in saying that it is a matter for the Charity Commissioners, are not the Charity Commissioners in the difficulty that they have to interpret our law of charity? Is not one of the arms of the law of charity the advancement of religion; and is not the word "religion" unfortunately not very well defined in our law as yet and ought not some thought, at all events, to be given to this matter?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I cannot say what definition of "religion" is in fact within our law, but what I can say to the noble Lord is that the most effective way of discouraging any socially undesirable activity is to give it the greatest possible public exposure. The more the dangers are revealed, the less potent or attractive will they be.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, I apologise for coming back to the noble Lord the Minister. We are not on the subject of desirability or undesirability. As I understand it, we are on the subject of status as a charity. Is not the difficulty here the looseness of the definition to which I referred?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, the noble Lord is entitled to his point of view, but when it comes to the actual question of the Charity Commissioners dealing with this matter the status of any body which seeks charitable status is a matter for the commissioners and not for the Government. The Government appoint the Charity Commissioners. Nevertheless, I shall consider the noble Lord's point.

§ Lord Orr-Ewing
My Lords, does my noble friend know of any other religion which seeks to break up the unity of the family? Is that not why this particular cult is so desperately dangerous, together with the Moonies and others in a similar vein?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, there are a number of other new "religions"; some are registered and some are not. I should not like to be drawn on whether any of them try to break up the family.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, was not the so-called theology of this organisation the product of a sci-fi writer, one Ron L. Hubbard? Is that perhaps the measure of its value as a piece of theology to justify the description of its being a church?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, so far as Mr. Hubbard is concerned, the noble and learned Lord is quite right in saying that he appears to have been involved at the beginning of this. He applied for entry clearance to visit this country in 1982. He declined to attend an interview with a British representative to establish whether he was genuinely seeking entry as a visitor and his application was later refused. That decision was upheld by the independent appellate authorities and 655 an application for judicial review was refused in July this year. I explained earlier to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, that the appeal date has been set for February 1986.

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, with regard to the information that the noble Lord has given us about the Charity Commissioners, is it not a little astonishing that there should be an independent body authorised to give away Her Majesty's taxes?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I should have thought there was great advantage in a body which is set to do that being independent in the way that the noble Lord suggests.

§ Lord Shinwell
My Lords, are the Government prepared to allow a debate to take place in this House to ascertain the views of members of all parties on whether this organisation, which purports to have some theological basis, is entitled to charitable status or any other kind of status?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I am sure that the usual channels will take note of the noble Lord's view.